But to quote you ' It is generally considered in the horse world (and genetics is genetics) That to breed back to pure by backcrossing and eliminating ALL foreign traits is done by the 4th cross' So that means that both my 7th generation (from the original cross) litter sisters are PURE you cant have it all ways and as you say genetics is genetics So it would seem that generally you are incorrect in your attitude to my bobtails. To quote you 'Yes it looks like a boxer, but technically is not one. It is a derivative' But as you quoted above ' It is generally considered in the horse world (and genetics is genetics) That to breed back to pure by backcrossing and eliminating ALL foreign traits is done by the 4th cross' In the UK Bobtails are generally mated to longtailed Boxers and not bobtail to bobtail matings...Dr Cattanach may have done bobtail to bobtail matings for his genetic research into the effects of mating bobtail to bobtail and one such mating was done to see if a bitch had a bobtail or screw tail. So it would seem from my personal knowledge that in the UK that we are breeding bobtails with genetic diversity and that aren't inbred....I'm certainly not inbreeding. Dr Cattanach's youngest two bobtails aren't inbred either. You don't need to inbreed. The Munich Boxer Klub itself isn't the orginal breeder of the Boxer.. it's founder members which bred the Boxer derived from the British Bulldog and the Bullenbeisser are the original breeders..
Absolutely correct! Flora 1st was even imported from France to Munich to start with the Boxer breed! The Boxer doesn't belong to the Germans anymore. The Boxer has even a Belgian/French origin! The Boxer just belongs to everyone, to the world. The bobtail boxer is a godsend for the breed! Organise a poll on a boxer forum about cropped ears and more than 50% will vote "pro" for the cropped erect ear. It would be nice if the natural erect ear could be established in the Boxer in the same way as was done for the bobtail, just to prevent all those people around the world from cropping the ears from their lovely Boxer. Mr Cattannah has just completed the work from the Munich Boxer Club in 1895. I'm pretty sure that the "founders" of the breed decided to crop the ears and dock the tail, because they didn't want to spent many years in establishing the natural short tail and natural erect ears as was done in breeds such as the Boston Terrier, English Bulldog or French bulldog The work of Dr. Cattannah is a milestone in Boxer history! Unfortunately, only some narrow minded and conservatives don't appreciate him yet...
Absolute rubbish. Two pure bred dogs of different breeds create a "crossbreed" or as is termed in some dog circles - a "mongrel". The original dog used for this "designer" dog was a White Boxer - a lot wonder why when its said that Dr C has little to no time for Whites. It also goes against all the Boxer Clubs recommendations that whites should not be bred from
It seems that you don't know a thing about Boxer breeding. The current bob-tail Boxers are 9th generation, that is 99,8% pure boxer and only 0,2% Corgi. The 10th generation will be 99,9% pure Boxer and only 0,10% Corgi. The historical foundation of the Boxer was made by nearly all white Boxers: 'Boxl', Piccolo v Angertor, Blanka v Angertor, Dr. Toenniessens Tom, Meta v d Passage. The Germans have tried to cross spitz-breeds in the Boxer in an attempt to breed Boxers with a natural erect ear some years ago. White Boxers were only disqualified about 10 years after the foundation of the breed. Many breeders are consequently breeding white boxers, because they use "flashy boxers" that generate 25% white boxers in such a litter. If I think like you, this is breeding against the standard and recommendations from their own boxer clubs. A "pure" Boxer doesn't exist! All breeds are "mutts" or designer dogs if we follow your vision on dog breeds. Every dog breed starts as a cross between unrelated breeds. The Boxer started as a cross between a Brabanter Bullenbeisser and an Old English Bulldog. The second generation (Alt's Schecken N° 50) from the original crossing was 75% Brabanter Bullenbeisser and 25% Old English Bulldog. Without crossing 2 unrelated breeds, everyone would have a spitz breed or wolf like dog breed at home.
i know this an old thread but how much is normal for a bobtail boxer? I know somebody is charging £1000 is that the norm?
Do you have bobtails? You could probably answer question about price. I dont see the point in outcrossing either. If you do breed i am surprised you admit breeding from white boxers. In the boxer world (uk) its frowned on. Having said that in countries outside the uk folk breed using white boxers & one lady based in the USA has been showing & breeding white boxers for years.
Its important to understand though said lady in the US, is not affiliated to any major reconsigned Club.. the club she is a member of is a club of 1(herself) and the shows she shows in and gains her dogs certificates are her own shows, with her own rules.:? She promotes the White Boxer as the only true Boxer, and has a plan to rid the world of anything other than Whites!!
Sadly that's the price of commercialism :-( There are some people that breed the bobtails that exploit them for their natural tail and because there is a demand for a short tailed Boxer/docked Boxer as some don't like them with tails and some have paid this price it then becomes the norm until either there are as many bobtails as tailed Boxers. Well bred bobtails from health tested parents aren't numerous. But yes I know of the commercial elements that are charging £950-£1200 for bobtails. (Extortionate in my own view and I'm sure the creator of the bobtail would feel the same). Even those that have tried to protect their bobtails from being used as breeding machines by endorsing the pedigree's have been thwarted as some are now breeding from them and registering their pups with the 'alternative' pedigree registration peeps... :-( This worries me greatly. Unfortunately a supply and demand 'market' has driven the prices up. As there aren't many being bred by the non-commercial breeders the commercial ones can charge the earth and get it. If puppy purchasers would be patient and wait....and buy a bobtail from a non commercial breeder then the prices of those commercial breeders would have to come down. Sure there are people that do cash in (and this is in all breeds) but there are people out there that are honourable and don't charge the earth for a bobtail puppy. They charge the same price as what you'd pay for a tailed Boxer pup. For the record I have all three tail types of Boxers - docked, bobtail and long tail. I love them all regardless of their tail length
You can read a fair bit on the topic on Bruce Cattanach's website. The trait that was sort after and achieved was the bob tail. If you read what has been written on the other traits, short legs etc, they are of recessive gene and once not apparant, are no longer able to be reproduced, unless put back to a short legged breed again. What needs to be considered is that in my country, over 30% of the boxer breeders have decided to walk away from the breed because the breed now have tails. That means litterally a third of the responsable, dedicated breeders are now gone. This also means that the preverlance of backyard breeders, purely for lack of supply, will be on the increase. This means that all the care and dedication in cardiomyapathy, cogenital heart defects etc that we have strived to stamp out by thoroughly health checking our dogs will also disappear. This can only be seen as a bad thing. Responsable breeders will listen to the health tests and not breed from affected stock. We then come back to the bob tail. This has been carried out by not just a boxer breeder of some decades of experience, a qualified judge, but also a highly respected genetisist. His testing, records and professionalism was impecable. This has to be put into perspective:- The boxer is a very young breed, only being blueprinted by the Munich Boxer Club in 1894. This was a vision by dog fanciers, not even a real breed at the time, just something they wanted to achieve. This was achieved in a fairly short time in reality, a huge achievement. But one thing needs to be remembered. They were not genetisists!
I think its disgraceful that we are even breeding dogs with no tails. Dogs are meant to have tails, its the way they communicate. Who are we to say a dog shouldn't be allowed to have a tail? Should we breed dogs without a nose next? Or maybe dogs without hind legs, cos it looks good? Why is everything about looks these days? Dogs should be bred with tails and born with tails.
Really?? - there are a number of breeds who, without any intervention from mankind, can be born naturally tailess. Are you suggesting that we stop breeding these breeds? Even though some have been around for 1000 years or so with naturally short tails? The whole not being able to communicate without a tail is nonesense - and I speak from the experience of owning for over 14 years dogs who have been born with naturally short tails as well as full tailed dogs. tail carriage is an extremely minor part of inter canine communication - there are tonnes of threads on the forum about it, maybe you should have a read.
I really do find it very sad that breeders have gone out of a breed simply bwcause they cant dock anymore, so thats what owning the dog to rbem means, a shirt tail, nothing else, rather shallow view dedicated responsible breeders will carry on (as many have done) & rewrite standards for tail carriage. Your average pet owners dont have boxers for their tails, they have them because of their unique personality, they are loving, kind, intelligent & if they could get in under their owners skin to get closer to them, the would! Give it a decade or two & folk wont even question whether a dog should or shouldnt have a tail
I agree, if you have ever owned a boxer you will be hard pressed to own another breed ever again, but if you see it from the breeders point of view, they are the ones who answer the questions from the everyday pet owners, "Do they have tails now? I don't want one with a tail" etc. Maybe shallow, yes, but alot of these people grew up with a boxer and now they are adults and decide they want one. The choice to offer them an alturnitive, a boxer that is all of the above in character, looks, temperament but with a natural, short tail. I truely cannot see the harm if they are born naturally this way. Some puppies are both with tails and some without in a bobtail litter, guess which ones are sold first? Lets have a look at the natural bobtail gene. Natural bobtail dog breeds with C189G mutation: Australian Shepherd Austrian Pinscher Australian Stumpy Tail Cattle Dog Braque du Bourbonnais Brazilian Terrier Brittany Spaniel Croatian Sheepdog Danish/Swedish Farmdog Jack Russell Terrier Karelian Bear Dog Mudi Polish Lowland Sheepdog Pyrenean Shepherd Braque Francais aka Savoy Sheepdog Schipperke Spanish Water Dog Swedish Vallhund Welsh Pembroke Corgi Natural bobtail dog breeds without C189G mutation: Boston Terrier English Bulldog King Charles Spaniel Miniature Schnauzer Parson Russell Terrier Rottweiler Dog breeds into which the C189G mutation has been introduced by cross-breeding: Boxer Dog breeds where natural bobtails have not yet been tested for C189G mutation: Catahoula Leopard Dog French Bulldog McNab (dog) Miniature Fox Terrier Old English Sheepdog Rat Terrier Tenterfield Terrier Wild species with natural bobtails The extensive list of natural bobtail species suggests that there is an advantage to having no tail or a very short tail in some environments and for some activities. Agouti American short-tailed shrew Barbary Ape Bear Bobcat Boar Capybara Cassowary Chimpanzee Deer Elephant seal Elk Emu Frog Fur seal Gibbon Gorilla Harbour Seal Hare Human Koala Lynx Mole (animal) Moose Northern Short-tailed Shrew Orangutan Ostrich Rabbit Reindeer Sea lion Short-tailed Albatross Short-tailed Bandicoot Rat Short-tailed Gymnure Short-tailed Hawk Short-tailed Nighthawk Short-tailed opossum Short-tailed Pipit Short-tailed Shearwater Short-tailed Swift Short-tailed weasel Siamang Southern Short-tailed Opossum Southern Short-tailed Shrew Stoat Tailless Bushblue Tail-less Leaf-nosed Bat Tailless Metallic Green Hairstreak Tail-less Tenrec Tailless Whip Scorpion Tasmanian Devil Toad Walrus Wombat Interesting hey....
Happy days! The more previously docked breeds that are seen with tails, the less the average pet owner will think about whether the dog should or shouldnt have a tail. Just grimmaced at all my typos in that post. That is the iTouch keyboard for you and my attempts at one finger typing
Hmm interesting points. However I pulled out the above to answer. You see no matter how I look at it, to me those Boxers that were crossed with a corgi are not a true Boxer, they are a crossbreed. It is also true is it not that in bobtail litters the pups can have varying lengths of tails from very short stumps to being on the longer side As for bobtails selling faster - thats up to the individual although some folk will buy to be "different" and pay extra for it. I have been informed that bobtails can cost more than their litter mates, that I find hard to phantom, why should they cost more when they all originate from crossbred parentage. More specifically whether they have a bobtail or tail if born into a bobtail litter they are still technically a "bobtail" and carry the gene. If someone is selling pups from a bobtail litter, all those pups should be the same price. I would not knowingly go out and buy a pup from a bobtail litter as ethically I personally dont agree with it but I acknowledge that everyone is different and different people have different ideas I have heard the argument that today you would never get a short legged / pointed nosed Boxer born in a bobtail litter - hmm - what about a "throw back"... My view: If a pup is born with a tail, he or she should be allowed to keep it.
All breeds started as crossbreeds: The Boxer is a cross between the extinct Brabanter Bullenbeisser and and English Bulldog. If you know enough about genetics of the dog, you should know that a breed is 99,22% purebred from the 7th generation. This means after 6 backrosses to Boxer after the initial Boxer x Corgi cross. In Australia some breeders are already in the 11th generation of Bobtail Boxers, which means that there is 99,95% Boxer and only 0,05% Corgi in it. It will be 99,99% Boxer if they are in the 14th generation. It will be rounded to 100% purebred Boxer in the 15th generation. The bobtail Boxers are just purebred Boxers from the 4th generation. Most Kennel Clubs consider a breed purebred from 93,75% (4th generation). There is just no visual difference between a 7th generation bobtail Boxer and a classic Boxer. This is nonsense: the littermates of bobtail Boxer are allowed on conformation shows and receive a pedigree as a purebred Boxer from the Kennel Club. If the long tailed Boxers in those litters are not considered "crossbreeds", but purebred Boxers from the Kennel Clubs, who are you to say that this isn't true? It's even scientifically unlogical. I agree on this one. That's a narrowminded view on breeding. Transfering genes from one breed in to another by crossbreeding is even a modern technique if one want to "correct" a breed by the infusion of good genes from another breed (see the Dalmation Backcross Project). Frankly said: if some breed clubs don't get rid of their dogmatic views on "pure blood", some breeds will simply go extinct. It's already proven by dr. Cattanach by mating 2 boxers from the Corgi x Boxer cross together and that are only 4 generations away from the original Corgi (and thus by "doubling up" on Corgi) that there is no throw back at all of these Corgi traits, because the unwanted traits were dominantly inherited. There were also no problems by crossing bobtails x bobtails. Again, these are basic lessons in genetics. Traits that are dominantly inherited, can be easily removed from a breed. So, once you remove those unwanted traits from your breeding programme, they are gone forever. Only recessive genes stay in a breed over many generations.
Can i ask why youre dragging up this old post & tearing it to shreds? Im entitled to my opinion as you are to yours. I will never like the idea of a Boxer crossed with a Corgi & i am not alone with that view point. Prehaps it is better we agree to disagree.
