Incontinence Questions

Discussion in 'Weimaraner' started by Arachnid, Aug 6, 2017.

  1. Arachnid

    Arachnid New Member

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    Colin Webb

    Incontinence

    I have a 5 year old spayed Weimeraner bitch who has suddenly become incontinent nearly always at night. She was treated with antibiotics for a week for an infection which didn't work and then with incurin for two weeks which also had no effect. The vet didn't advise any increase in dose or any other type of tablets but for an appointment for blood samples and a scan. My dog doesn't appear to have any other symptoms and seems otherwise normal. Do you think the vet should have tried an increased dosage of incurin or tried propalin which I have read can help before taking these steps?
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  3. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    Hi Colin, welcome to the forum.
    I don't know whether I have any useful advice, but this is our journey.
    My girl lived in kennels till she was six, and was spayed just before coming here, two years ago. Of course, she wasn't house-trained, and it was only when she was still wetting at night after six months that we began to suspect that there might be something wrong. Our vet gave her Propalin, and we began to set an alarm for 3.45am, which did reduce the frequency of accidents. Last summer she went clear for 4 months - we thought we were winning, and began to taper off the Propalin.
    By September 2016, we were back to about five accidents a month. We had full blood and urine samples tested, all clear, - though her urine is a little dilute. We were given more Propalin - but there was not a dramatic improvement. I tried almost every alternative product, some helped a little, some not at all. Back to the vet, who was confident that Incurin would work, but she actually went much worse. By day 24, she looked as if she was coming into season, and was wetting every night. The vet has proposed an operation to reposition her urethra, which is said to have around a 60% success rate. I am still considering this.
    In the meantime, she still goes out at 3.45am. She sleeps on Vetbed over towels, which are easily dealt with it she has an overflow. She has a herbal product from csj called Hold It!, (brilliant reviews on the csj website), and eight drops of a herbal tincture called Phytopet Dry at night. She also has an Evening Primrose capsule in her lunch, (she is 13.5 K). She never leaks in the daytime, and does seem to be better in warm weather, but we still have an average of four wet towels a month, - sometimes just a leak, and sometimes a little more.
    I have run on a bit, hope some of this helps.
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  4. Andrew Mathison

    Andrew Mathison New Member

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    Sadly, I believe that your bitch is suffering from a loss of certain hormones from Spaying. It can take some years after the operation to appear. She cannot help it. Generally, about 25% of spayed bitches suffer from such problems later.....
    Which is why I don't allow the operation at all, for me the risk is still too high.

    There are plenty of websites, look here:-

    http://www.theveterinaryexpert.com/...rinary-incontinence-in-the-female-dog-part-1/

    Where you can read:-
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    It has not been proven that neutering before a first season causes urinary incontinence. The incidence of urinary incontinence in neutered females is reported between 5% to 20%. Neutered females are approximately 8 times more likely to develop urinary incontinence than bitches who haven’t been neutered. Dogs heavier than 15kg bodyweight are 7 times more likely to become incontinent following neutering than dogs less than 15kg.
    ----------------------------------------------
    The only other possible reason that I have experienced, is a lack of acid in the diet, causing the urine to form tiny crystals that irritate the bladder, even to the point of needing antibiotics, but extra acid (I used Guardacid on my last bitch (not spayed!) and cured the problem completely, by feeding her 6 tablets with her 3 small meals a day....
    You need litmus papers to test and verify that the urine is neutral, not acidic or alkaline that is.....
  5. Innocence

    Innocence Member

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    Hello Colin,
    Welcome to Breedia. ;)
    Sorry to hear about you Weimaraner. I don't think I have any useful advice to give really as your vet has done what she thought would solve the problem. I'm guessing the infection your dog was given antibiotics for was UTI. If you say that didn't solve the problem then the other things it could be are. Spinal cord disease and spay incontinence. As I think the spinal disease is very unlikely as the scan came up as normal. It must be spay incontinence or something else that is beyond my power to discover. I would look at consulting a specialist.
    I hope you solve the problem soon,:(
    Jane
    xx
  6. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    @Arachnid and any other fellow sufferers.
    I have been doing a little lateral thinking about this incontinence problem, based on the fact that when my girl has had a leak, she always seems to pass a motion as soon she is allowed out.
    As an experiment, I am currently not going to bed until she has emptied both her bowel and her bladder, which she normally does between 10.30 and 12.30am. She has just gone 36 nights with only one little mistake - I had a really bad cold, and needed to go to bed early - too early for her full night time ritual!
    I'm not celebrating yet, as for some reason she did have quite a long dry spell last Summer, but I do think that it is possible that the pressure from a full lower bowel could cause the bladder to release urine while lying down. If anyone else did fancy joining in with this little experiment, it might be rather interesting to compare results.
  7. Malka

    Malka Member

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    @CaroleC - that sounds quite logical. Having partial Cauda Equina syndrome I do not have any sensation of a full bowel until almost the last minute, and frequently when I wake up during the night needing the loo I find that it is a full bowel that is pressing on my bladder that has woken me.
  8. Andrew Mathison

    Andrew Mathison New Member

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    I think we should all pass the info onto as many people who are dog owners, or might become dog owners, that spaying bitches, in about 25% of the cases, causes incontinence, according to some learned vets, who have studied the problem over many years. 25% is far too high a risk for me personally.....one I am NOT prepared to take.
    I have also mentioned that un-spayed bitches can easily be taught to wear underpants and pantie liners, I have done it with 3 bitches (all Weimies) since 1977.
    Even if they get caught by a male, it really should not be a problem as there is a jab that prevents the bitch becoming pregnant.
    Also, in my limited experience of other people's spayed bitches, some get far too fat. I have no proven idea why. Overeating/over feeding, or simply a hormone imbalance (which I feel is very possible myself)....no concrete idea otherwise.
    So no need for spaying.
    If that is not enough for some owners, then such people should be buying dogs instead of bitches, is my personal view.
    regards to all here
    Andy
  9. Malka

    Malka Member

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    CaroleC likes this.
    @Andrew Mathison - I have had many spayed bitches and none of them ever developed incontinence. And none of them ever developed mammary tumours or pyometra either, which can occur in un-spayed bitches and can be fatal.

    Nor did any of them gain any weight, let alone get fat.

    I have bitches because I prefer bitches as my pets. Males are not for me. Nor are "underpants and pantie liners" on bitches.

    I, like many others, take the advice of my Vet.
  10. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    Malka likes this.
    Although I believe all dogs are better with their hormones, there are other reasons besides convenience for spaying bitches. Juvenile spaying offers considerable protection from mammary tumours, and is common in shelters as a means of reducing the number of unwanted dogs that they have to deal with. Unfortunately, you do not have to produce a certificate of competence before rehoming a dog.
    Spaying in middle age can be necessary to treat, or protect against, pyometra, cystic ovaries, and other diseases which females of all species are prone to. Believe me, I would prefer to have my own hormones back, but not the two cancers that necessitated their removal!
    As a home breeder, I always spayed my bitches at around six, when they had had their one or two litters - not only to guard against the above conditions, but also because they lived in the house as a mixed pack with males, who would otherwise be constantly excited by the presence of fertile females.
    Lastly, as with my current bitch, who was spayed and rehomed by one of the most successful kennels in the breed. These kennels have a bloodline and a reputation to protect, and dare not take the chance that their bitches might fall into the hands of people who might be tempted take litters beyond the KC legal age of seven, - or even worse, could end up in the hands of puppy farmers.
    There are so many reasons for spaying, and in my opinion, there are no rights or wrongs. We all do what we do with the best of intentions based on our particular circumstances.
  11. Andrew Mathison

    Andrew Mathison New Member

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    Sadly, many vets go for the "Buck" first, out to cash in....Also, the problem, if it occurrs, might be 5 years or more down the road, so it is unlikely that a vet will be called "to book" if it developes. Therefore it is a very "safe" (for the vet) way to make money. Sadly.......

    Sadly, studies have demonstrated in many breeds, a far higher risk of some cancers in Neutered/spayed dogs. See here for example:-

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2970154/Are-spayed-neutered-dogs-higher-risk-CANCER-Responsible-medical-procedure-linked-higher-incidence-disease.html

    Where you can read the following:-
    -----------------------------------------------------

    Are spayed and neutered dogs at higher risk of CANCER? 'Responsible' medical procedure linked to higher incidence of disease
    • Two studies hint spayed or neutered pets are at higher risk of cancers
    • Study by University of California-Davis found a link between the practice in Golden Retrievers and mast cell cancer and hemangiosarcoma
    • Another by Binghampton University found a link betweenneutered Vizslas and mast cell cancer, lymphoma and hemangiosarcoma
    • Most vets still recommend the medical procedure for pets and more research is needed to confirm possible links with cancer
    • Researchers from the University of California-Davis studied hospital records of 759 dogs between the age of one and eight years old.

      They found that three times as many early neutered males were diagnosed with lymphosarcoma – the third most common cancer in dogs – as against unneutered males.


      Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook
    -------------------------------------------------------------------

    So even neutered males can get cancer due to the neutering!!

    Also, I can say than none of my bitches have ever had either disease you mention, nor cancer either, so I looked upthe likelihood for each, and the seriousness compared to incontinence problems for you and found this vet analysis of the tumours (which by the way, can easily be operated on if discovered early on and not just simply ignored till its too late).

    I found this on the IoT about mammary tumours:-
    --------------------------------------------------
    A genetic basis is possible in some breeds, and there are frequently some genes that can be identified in dogs that are predisposed to cancer of the mammary glands. For example, toy and miniature poodles, English springer spaniels, Brittanys, cocker spaniels, English setters, pointers, German shepherd dogs, Maltese, and Yorkshire terriers have been reported to have an increased risk of developing breast or mammary tumors compared to other breeds. Median age is about 10.5 years........
    -------------------------------------------------
    So it appears, that by carefully picking your breed, this can probably be completely avoided.

    It therefore appears alone from their breeds,none bitches are/were very likely to get it. Which I can confirm with 3 Weimaraner ladies and a Dalmation bitch over a period of more than 40 years....

    It appears to me that you are only going by your own experience/luck, and as there is an aproximate 75% chance of it NOT happening, you have apparently profitted by the odds. Lucky you,or should I say, lucky for your bitches!!

    Pyometra is basically an infection caused by unhygienic conditions after or during a bitch being "on heat", plus the owner either simply ignoring the symptoms, or possibly them not having a clue how long the bleeding SHOULD normally take. (

    None of my bitches have ever taken longer than 7-10 days of bleeding, many do not know this apparently...... But I kow as I am the one changing the pantie liner and the pants each day!!

    They get a fresh liner up to 6 or more times a day, which probably accounts for the fact that none have ever had such a problem. Clean, sanitary conditions are needed (as with human females under similar conditions!) to stop such happenings......

    They always go to bed without a pantie, also walks are taken without as well of course!! Bed linen is changed several times during this period....

    More details are here for anyone interested and unaware of the reasons for such a (easily preventable and treatable) infection:-

    https://www.vets-now.com/pet-care-advice/pyometra-in-dogs/

    Which of course, if not completely ignored, can be cleared with antibiotics very easily appently....so no big deal for an "aware" owner.

    I can only say, that I have never taken the risk of spaying, as I see no need of spaying. But if you are willing to take the risk, that is your decision. But do remember that IF spaying incontinence does eventually appear, it will often be completely untreatable, as you can read here with the experiences of other members........you either live with it, or not!!

    I would rather not.

    But in my experience here in both the UK and Germany, there are two types of owner who get their bitches spayed, one who vehemently defends their position with undue worries of about not doing it and others who did it for an easy life, but who did not know about any of the possibly very serious issues which can occurr when a bitch is spayed.....in around 25% of the ones operated on according to some sources. But all sources say that it is far more than in un-spayed Bitches......

    I hope this has fully answers your "worries" with regard to not spaying, and made you fully aware of the other dangers of cancer with a spayed bitch or a dog..... it is unnatural, so it is hardly surprising that such animals react badly to un-needed ops.

    Andy
  12. Andrew Mathison

    Andrew Mathison New Member

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    I forgot to mention that I was fairly recently talking to our vet about the spaying problems (she is against spaying by the way), and she mentioned that she was reading a study made some years ago, that long haired dogs/bitches get far more health problems, mainly related to cleanliness, than short haired dogs do, which are able to keep themselves far cleaner, far more easily.

    All of my bitches over a great many years were shorthaired (as I find that they handle central heating in the winter far better and the relatively hot summers as well. We have a 70°C temperature range here), cold clean themselves just like a cat does. Several times a day.

    I have no experience of owning a long haired dog, but have noticed that quite a few carry faeces on their rear areas after going to the toilet!! UGH!!! No wonder some get infections in their private parts!!!

    (By the way, our vet highly recommends cutting the hair on long coated dogs for the summer, as she has had extensive experience in long haired dogs dying of heat exhaustion!! Even though it makes her no money at all from her recommendations as she does not cut them herself!)

    Its a great shame that humans have altered many breeds, usually negatively, as we now know today.....A recent UK TV program (this year) showed just what awful things have been done to certain breeds.
    Boxers and their breathing for one.

    German Shepherds with hip displacia, which is also prevalent in many other breeds as well today, sadly.

    Andy
  13. Malka

    Malka Member

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    @Andrew Mathison - I do not have any "worries" but I do have facts and statistics, and NOT from the Daily Mail. And I have owned dogs for well over the 40 years you say you have. So please do not try to dismiss my own experience and knowledge.

    My Vet does not "go for the "Buck" first" nor is he "out to cash in". I do not know where you are from but in this Country there are set rates for spaying if the bitch has had the mandatory yearly rabies shots and is microchipped - both of which are registered with the Ministry of Agriculture under the owner's ID number. The rates are set by the Ministry of Agriculture and are relative to the dog's size/weight.

    This is to avoid the the excessive number stray dogs that are dumped everywhere. It is "mommy we really want a puppy" and then when that cute puppy grows up and is no longer cute, they get dumped. Or unwanted puppies from "accidental matings" get thrown into the agricultural fields because nobody wants them.
  14. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    Pork1epe1 likes this.
    My decisions are based on 64 years of practical experience of showing, breeding and training dogs, and working in human and animal health. Until I had a rescue who would jump out over 6 foot fences, (spayed at 15 months), I have never spayed my bitches before the age of 5 years. Merry is my first incontinent bitch, and I must have had over twenty of them.

    My first dog, a WSD, was unspayed, (spaying was unusual in the 1950's), she is the only dog I have lost with mammary and uterine cancer. The 5 year old spay was due to cystic ovaries, and my daughter's Border Terrier nearly died last year after developing pyometra.

    However, I would not attempt to tell you what to do with your dogs - unless you were to ask. I am saying that the majority of the people that use this forum are experienced, ethical, dog people, who have their own opinions, and act accordingly. I don't think we put panties on our dogs - I certainly haven't, and we don't have dogs with dirty bottoms because we feed them correctly and keep them clean and well groomed. I have had several long haired breeds, and can say that they wouldn't have done very much winning if they had their furnishings cut off.
  15. Andrew Mathison

    Andrew Mathison New Member

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    Let me dispell (again) your obvious anger, and lack of supporting evidence for just about everything you have posted. Too many puppies are born, but to people who do not care what their animals are doing, as there are enough methods around nowadays for serious dog owners to prevent unwanted puppies....

    Which is why my latest was partly a rescue (that I bought as she is pure bred), as her owner (the owner of a well known breed here in Germany) had her mother, two brothers, a family with two teenagers, a husband and severe ovarian cancer. She may not last till 2018!! One dog had to go.....my good luck!!

    The Mail being only a single source that I thought you might like on the subject, but I can produce the same/similar information from DOZENS of other sources if you wish. Just say the word!!

    YOU SEEM TO FORGET THAT UP TO NOW YOU HAVE NOT PRODUCED A SINGLE SOURCE ONLINE OR NOT, TO SUPPORT ANYTHING THAT YOU SAY!!!!

    Then your comments are simply "hearsay" and nothing more......

    Most of what you write has little or nothing to do with the possible incidence of incontinence in spayed bitches, which is the subject matter here, or have you forgotten, and now you see it as picking on you persoanlly?????

    For your information:-
    My first dog, that I was involved with, went through WW2 with my mother in the UK. He was there when I was born, in October 1946.

    Rex, he was around 10 when he had to be put down as he was threatening my (then newborn) life.

    Then came Judy 1949. Sadly died at about one year from Hardpad. See here if you are interested what that is:-
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canine_distemper
    It was everywhere just after WW2 it would seem. To the best of my knowledge, there was either no vaccine at that time, or my Mother did not know about it.....I have no idea.

    Then came Angus 1950. Far too soon after Judy and he caught it too, but with good treatment, he survived for a further 17 years!

    Then came William 1967 or 8, a large Dalmation male, who was actually a born coward! Not a good personality trait....

    Then came Emma, his daughter, born around 1971 as far as I can remember, who was spayed (not my personal choice even then, but I was far less aware of any possible consequences). Through Emma, I learnt how Bitches are so much cleaner than male dogs.

    Never had a "male Dog" since.

    Emma got cancer at about 14 and had to be put down. ( A spayed bitch!!)

    1977 I bought my first Weimaraner puppy as I had recently got married after 10 years in the RN (no place for a dog!!), a beautiful bitch, she was a darling from day one. Highly intelligent and a wonderful part of the family. Was not spayed, had kidney failure at 12 years old and was put down.

    Due to international work commitments, (I was a computer specialist for several large US companies) I waited till I had retired (at 59) for my next Bitch Weimaraner, in 2008.

    She died this year after finding a too small ball, in a field near our house, and inhaling it. I was heartbroken. Still am, as that was so unnecessary.....she knew full well, no small balls!!

    2 months later (July), I bought my next Weimaraner Bitch, she is a little bit older (will be 2 y.o. on 17th of this month!), as due to a small job, working 2 x 2 hours a (week) day, driving handicapped people to and from their place of work, for a Trust, I was not interested in a Puppy this time...

    She is terrific, and I am really happy with her.

    Not that it has ANYTHING to do with incontinence and spaying of bitches as you apparently think!!! But both my last bitch and the new one were/are fully chipped and had/have Passports, as I travel often privately, while on holiday, and my dogs always go with me. Caravanning!!

    Due to travel regs between Europe and the UK, the Dog Passport is a 100% MUST HAVE!!

    So, does my "experience with dogs" have any bearing on the matter, as you imply with your unfriendly comments, of course not. Neither does yours!!!

    Remember, I will be 71 in October, I still have a small job. I have a VERY active Weimaraner Bitch (again!), that needs a lot of walking. I cycle just about everywhere (mostly with the dog!!), as my wife still works and uses our car daily.....

    Not that that has anything to do with spaying incontinence you understand either........

    Are there any other questions you might have? But please, ones pertinent to the discussion?o_O:026:

    Andy
  16. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    Innocence likes this.
    Remain on topic? Yes please.
    With apologies to thread starter @Arachnid, the topic is not spaying but Incontinence. If you are still with us Colin, do you have any opinion about my little experiment of making sure that both the bowel and the bladder are empty before retiring?

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