Working stock dogs Discussions

"ANYBODY can take part in the threads, however, as these sections are meant to act as mini-sites, we will not allow any breed bashing, they are meant to be positive sections.

However we do understand that sometimes people may want to 'discuss' a breed, particularly if they feel something is going wrong with the way it is heading. In these instances you may ONLY discuss breeds in such a manner in their respective discussion threads (see list below). In other words, the only place anything that can be considered negative about a breed, should ONLY be posted in the breed's discussion thread. In addition only people with genuine concerns should voice their opinions, anyone who sounds as though they are deliberately bashing a breed or trying to create an argument will have their posting privileges removed.


These are the rules for this section, If you feel that a collie that is bred not to work is no longer a Collie & some other breed, then is that not negative & breed bashing???????. It certainley is VERY rude & insulting & has no place in this thread. So say the rules. If i find you slating my BCs again i will report your post

I haven't seen any posts as breed bashing to be honest. In fact, the very opposite. We all want what is best for our dogs and to have the best dogs for the jobs/sport etc that we want to do with them.

I personally am finding the discussion very interesting and informative and do hope the thread won't be locked.

We all have differing opinions and views, but that is what makes forums like this active and interesting.

Just my opinion.

Firstly welcome to our overseas new members that have joined dogsey to participate in this thread. Don't forget to put a "hello" on the introductions post.
Secondly in reply to one post, when you look at getting any dog the statement "I want" applies to us all. It starts with "I want a dog" followed by "I want it ........" followed by various statements "a pet" "to work my sheep" "to do obedience with" That I would have thought was obvious.
I also had a list "I want's" I wanted a dog that had an excellent temperament, a dog that had full healthchecks, no health problems in it's lines (CEA, CL, PRA, TNS, bad hips).
I want, I got, and I'm over the moon
From a "Barbie" dog owner which will work sheep

Thank you for pointing out that I must not have posted my opinions about this very thing in the right location.

Nothing I have said has been intended to be derogatory to anyone's particular dog(s) but simply to breeding choices (and purchasing choices for those that don't breed) and how they affect the future of the breed (the direction in which the breed is going, as noted above).

That said, I appreciate the vast majority of responses which have been civil and without folks talking personal offense, hope people have been motivated to think about the topic, and will gladly not be involved in further discussion here.

But Sue, you've only just joined Dogsey, dont go now

Thanks (I think) for inviting me to stay. I really don't think that this is a forum where I quite "fit in".

Love your dogs, and may you and they enjoy each other in whatever activities you participate!

I think everyone's opinion counts and I would love you to stay Sue.

Absolutely, we only really have Moobli that works her dogs, and to be honest I'm sick of seeing piccies of them. Please post some of yours.
Kirsty I love ya really :

Yes, Sue - let's see your dogs in action.

Is that directed at me also? that i have not been Civil to you? im just Standing up for my dogs!!!!!!

Perhaps you would like to show us what you & your dogs can do, what you have bred/trained etc etc.

Mishflynn - I cannot speak for Sue, but I really do think you are taking her posts far too personally :-(

When comments are made about my dogs, which are purpose bred preformance dogs, & therefore any comments to dogs bred for "other" purposes infer to me & them. & basically say that they ARENT collies & dont deserve to be called collies.is bashing my dogs & breed imo!

Obvisley as Sue thinks along the same lines as you you arent going to be offended, but i REALLY am!!!!!
I feel SICK everytime i look on here to see whats been said about my dogs now


And she dosent think shes done anything wrong

Everyone is entitled to a opinion i agree, but basically implying my dogs are a different breed & dont deserve to be called collies is HIGHLY offensive & should really not be anypart of a discussion, even if she thinks im not "civil". Im FUMING

Maybe, Maybe not. I take comments about my dogs VERY personally.They are important to me & i wont have them rubbished by people who dont know their breeding/background & abilities

I don't think anything I say will convince you that no-one is trying to rubbish your dogs Mishflynn. Some people are just very passionate about keeping the border collie as a working dog. I don't think any posts were intended to cause offence or say your dogs were less valued than anyone elses. That is my take on the discussion anyway.

Also, why not tell us about your dogs' breeding, accomplishments, abilities etc. I, for one, would love to hear all about it. I am interested in learning about what others do with their dogs too.

To put a bit of balance back into this I do have to admit that there have been some comments which could have and obviously have offended. People have strong opinions but that's not to say anyone has the right to say they are absolutely so therefore everyone else is wrong.
I think SUER did rise a few people with sweeping statements and remarks, indicating that anything but a working collie is a twist of the breed. Now people like mishflynn and myself appreciate the breeding and lines that people have put decades into.
I think this post explains why Mishflynn was upset, to be honest I was a touch offended because I have a lot of friends who put a lot of time into the breed. As you see below it has been put across that if you don't breed a working dog then you're an irresponsible breeder/buyer that's trashing the breed, which in my opinion is totally wrong.


"The issue is responsible breeding, what folks are/should be breeding for, and how breeding will affect the future of the breed.

If you don't breed Border Collies/Working Sheepdogs for what defines the breed - the instincts and abilities, physical and mental, that make the breed the world's premier sheepdog (and a doggone good dog on many other types of stock) - then you are no longer breeding Border Collies.

For all those who are breeding away from the Border Collie/Working Sheepdog, let's call the dogs what they are: if you are breeding for conformation - Barbie Collies; performance sports - Sport Collies, obedience - GRITs (or Golden Retrievers in Tuxes); companions - Pet Collies, but you won't be breeding Border Collies.

Some folks may maintain stockworking charactertistics as they chose to breed for other aspects as well (color, conformation, etc.) but they will be severely limiting their available gene pool by further restricting for arbitrary and unessential characteristics. At some point, their breeding program will suffer without added infusion of "outside" bloodlines.

Some KC-bred dogs will turn out to be good stockdogs, just like some working-bred dogs possess the characteristics that would make them a successful show or performance or comanion dog. But the odds are against getting what you are not breeding for, especially for such a complexity of traits as stockwork requires.

As for infusing ISDS or working-bred genes into the KC gene pool on occasion to "maintain" stock working ability - if folks weren't breeding without regard to ability in the first place, they wouldn't need to bring in working lines to try to replenish it.

I can't locate this right now but, looking at the KC website, I can't find stockwork ("herding") testing listed. I do know that there is a program where a KC dog can be tested through ISDS trialling to gain a recognition as a "proven" sheepdog.

I understand that there has only been one dog to accomplish that. Now, I don't know whether that's because KC "Border Collies" that have attempted that "test" just haven't been capable of being successful, or if so few KC folks with "Border Collies" have felt that working ability was important enough to even attempt the "test".

To me, that just says something about the importance (or lack thereof) of what the Border Collie/Working Sheepdog is all about within the Kennel Club (conformation/performance sports) community. I apologize that I can't locate the information on just what that program/test is right now.
quote]


At the end of the day common sense has to kick in. Statements that certains lines of border collies cannot be worked can never really be proved because unless you got the dog to work in the first place, many dogs are never put to sheep. So how can anyone be sure that working type is being bred away from in such a dramatic manner anyway. For someone from another country to comment on the state of the border collie over here without obvious knowledge of the various breeding lines, sorry does come across as condescending and rude although Sue may not mean to.
To call someones dog a "barbie" dog or a "Grit" because it doesn't work I'm afraid does come across as "my dogs are better yours". It's not something that us BC owners do on here. That's like me looking down on all the mismarked dogs on here just because they don't match the KC breed standard. I just wouldn't do it because I love all the BC's and the variety they come in.
I wasn't going to comment on this but I have to back Mishflynn up that she's not being over the top here. I can understand her anger, I chose not to respond at the time, because I let this sort of thing go over my head.

I still don't feel any posts were directed towards individuals, therefore shouldn't be taken as such. I know topics can get heated when all sides are passionate about what they do and their dogs, and so feelings can get easily hurt, when there was no intention for that to happen.

To be fair some were Moobli. Macman for instance was told by SueR that her main priority was having coloured dogs, very condescending.
For the rest perhaps not individuals but calling different groups of borders stupid names like BARBIES etc is at best irritating and at worst downright rude. Sorry but to some making remarks about their dogs is like making comments about a member of their family. If you look there is no personal remarks at all about any working dogs or individuals that work there dogs.
Your absolutely right Moobli people have strong opinions on subjects like these. I know you have and we chatted about things before, but the difference is that you generalise and have not once made remarks like this. It is there where people have taken hindrence.
I agree with what you said earlier, I want to hear what everyone does with their collies and why they got them (oh I have an idea for a new post) LOL

I have to say that I did find some of SueR's post offensive too, as we all have the right to do what we enjoy with our dogs and not be told they aren't proper border collies, the breed we love.

I also have found several posts offensive which is why although reading the thread i have rarely commented.

Several people have been "shot down" for talking about there dogs and breeding in a context of not working. i have also found some (naming no names), people who work their dogs to presume they are superior with knowledge of lines and breeding. Each of our dogs were carefully chosen after researching into lines - collies, kelpies and GSD's alike.

At the end of the day if you want a dog for working on sheep please feel free, if you want a dog to show, do obedience, do flyball, do agility or... god forbid as a well cared for exercised and mentally stimulated pet, learn to ignore the arrogant and the ignorant and spend your time discussing the versatilities of the breed, and how it has developed so to exist. At the end of the day, yes collies were herding dogs, but I dont hear the other breeds being discussed elsewhere, being told there dogs are not that of their breeding.

My dogs are collie - there breeding differs as do their registrations but at the end of the day they are the modern day collies; able to adapt.

Our GSD's are GSD's - neither of them work in the traditional sense, but they're hellish good dogs in their own right, and I dont hear anyone moaning that they're not doing what they were bred for. Similar to many labs, spaniels, rotties etc. that are often promoted as pets.

The world is changing, and will continue to do so, if that means your breed evolving and moving onto new heights... well go with it! Try to bask in the new glories that the breed can acheive nomatter what discipline its in.

Hazel xxx

(exiting thread to go and take some beautiful dogs for a walk that makes my life enjoyable, fun, loving and worth living, at the end of the day I couldn't give a S**T what other people think about them!)