For those into Genetics - Discussions

Discussion in 'Crossbreeds Forum' started by McGrane, Nov 30, 2020.

  1. McGrane

    McGrane New Member

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    For those into Genetics -

    I was reading an article recently about various crossbreeds with the Great Dane. I adore that particular breed, and it kills me that they have such a short life span, typically. Now, the article was talking about the Dane/Rottweiler mix, and how surprisingly when these two breeds mix, they have an average lifespan of 12-15 years, while still maintaining the giant breed statistics in weight and height.

    So my question is why? What about these two breeds overlapping works so well that it adds years of life when individually, both of these breeds expect an average of 8-10?

    I thought, at first, that perhaps certain qualities about them just negated major health risks when the mixing genetics happen, but some of the top concerns for both breeds - hip problems, bone problems, tendency toward flipped stomachs - are common denominators in both breeds and one would expect those traits to remain dominant and therefore maintain those potential health risks.

    So my questions are as follows -

    Any thoughts as to why this particular mix adds years of life to a giant breed?
    Any knowledge of other mixes which display similar phenomenon?
    Anyone who has a Dane/Rott and has some personal experience with that mix and can offer some insight beyond the article I read?

    Oh, and for anyone who wanted the source, that's here: https://k9deb.com/great-dane-mixes/
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  3. Malka

    Malka Member

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    Interesting website. Is it yours?
  4. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    How scientific was this study? The list of silly names for Dane crosses would lead me to think - not very.
    How many Dane x Rottweiler crosses did they study? In the absence of registration, did they check the birth and death dates or just rely on the owner's memory? A single example of any breed can live much longer or shorter than the average lifespan. The longest lived Beagle was 26 years but this wouldn't lead me expect to my own two to last that long.
  5. McGrane

    McGrane New Member

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    No, the website is not mine. It's just one I found in the process of my research on Dane crosses. If in any future scenario I did publish a website making any sort of sensational claims, I'd be citing references for my information. I don't know where their information came from, and I am absolutely skeptical. This is why I'm bringing up a discussion - trying to either verify and explain the genetic anomaly, or find facts to disprove it altogether.

    Wolves, from which all dogs are derived, can easily grow into the realm of "Giant Breed" standards. While in the wild a Wolf's lifespan tends to be the roughly eight years we'd expect from a Giant breed, in captivity a Wolf can live up to seventeen years. So in theory, genetically speaking, I can't help but think that it may be possible with crossbreeding to develop a domestic dog, which fell into a Giant category, which had a lifespan extending beyond that ten year mark most of those current breeds tend to meet their ends at. The question becomes how.
  6. Malka

    Malka Member

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    But that would not be a breed though, would it. Just as a "Labradoodle" is not a breed - or any of the other crosses like "Puggles" and other such designer dogs.

    I understand that you want a giant dog that lives longer than a pure-bred giant dog, but if you mix two breeds to get your longer-living dog it would still be a cross-breed. Unless I am missing the point completely.
  7. who owns who

    who owns who Member

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    I personally feel like there are enough dog breeds and people should just leave well enough alone... And stop with the designer cross breeds. Poo this and doodle that.. I met someone who told me their dog was a breed called huskita, which isn’t a breed, it’s a cross of a husky and an Akita. So great, now you’ve got an Akita that wants to run and run and run, and is even more of a risk to escape a fenced yard. If you want a dog that will live longer get a smaller breed dog. Just like humans, seven foot tall people, and 300+ lb people tend to have shorter lifespans
  8. McGrane

    McGrane New Member

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    I agree completely on the point of designer breeds for the sake of designer breeds. That said, all breeds we have today began with a cross between some standing breed and another standing breed. Fact. We wouldn't have half the breeds we consider standard today if people fifty and a hundred years ago stopped crossbreeding.

    However, I am not suggesting we should be breeding crosses just for the sake of expanding breed options. Back in the day, cross breeding was done for the sake of creating a breed for a specific task. My curiosity, questions, and interest lay in that same line of thought. I'm not interested in crossbreeding just for the sake of having something cute and new, or having something bigger and better.

    I said some of this in my profile info, but I'm a Homesteader, and while there are a number of breeds that qualify as "Livestock Guard Dogs" and are used in Homesteading today, many Homesteaders struggle with LGDs which still have a strong prey drive, and thus attack chickens they're meant to be protecting, or are in the giant breed group with such a short lifespan that by the time we get them trained to do exactly what we need them to do, they're reaching the end of their livespan. There isn't a ton of intelligence in those breeds. Some, but not to the degree I'd personally like to see. What Homesteading was 100 years ago and what it is today is a dynamically different thing in many ways, and as our way of doing things have changed, so have our needs in what we want for a LGD. However, the types of LGDs available has not changed. It is the same ten or twelve breeds it has been for the last century. Before I was a Homesteader, I worked in kennels, both boarding and breeding, and have extensive experience working with many different breeds. I know a good deal about K9 genetics. I am not beginning this project with a lack of experience, knowledge, nor irresponsibly. Before I even think about breeding anything, I want to make sure I have a solid plan. I want to minimalism how many generations I'd need to breed before getting to my end product without compromising the health of the animals or the sustainability of the genetic line. I also don't want to create problems within a line that already exist, particularly the issue of short life span. While a LGD does need to be large by default, and do believe it's possibly to create a dog that reaches that 100lb mark without hitting ten and, if not already dead, being crippled by joint problems.
  9. Chris

    Chris Member

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    Malka likes this.
    The theory doesn't stack up. A wolf in the wild has to deal with hunger, thirst, fights etc, etc. A captive wolf has food provided, no real threats and water freely available to say nothing of expert veterinary treatment on hand when needed.

    My guess is that the longevity of the captive wolf is environmental not genetic
  10. McGrane

    McGrane New Member

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    You are literally proving my point. Domestic dogs have food provided, water freely available, veterinary care, and generally don't have any real threats, and yet the larger breeds die at between 8-10 years of age. If you put a wolf of the same size into a domestic situation, it lives up to 17 years. Their genetic makeup, when removing the threats of the wild, allows them to live much longer than there domestic cousins.
  11. Queensland blue

    Queensland blue Member

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    McGrane likes this.
    Goes to show once again how nature does it better , and natural selection proves its resilience.
    (about the wolves).

    where as the dud dogs become a (breed) , in nature if they can’t keep up they will perish. Struggle brings strength.
    although struggle also can bring demise ,
    So humans as ‘owners’ and ‘breeders ‘ try to mitigate risk ,
    Inbreeding becomes a smaller gene pool , where as new developed ‘traits’ or branches of dna bring back ‘new blood’ into the mix.

    once again the unknown far exceeds our known , and the unknowable in my opinion shall always be so :)

    I personally think it’s natural for some cross breeding , and probably very healthy .
    although a lot of the time not with the ‘ duds ‘ and not for a lot of reasons people may choose the certain traits.


    here’s a guy breeding giant dogs you may be interested in he calls ‘Lycan’ shephards.
    look to me like wolf dogs.


    he also breeds what he calls ‘renaissance bulldogs ‘.
    You can find on his channel . Part of his ‘pack’.

    he is working on fixing things also .
    Making healthy dogs and having certain traits.
  12. Malka

    Malka Member

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    Chris likes this.
    But even the largest wolves are smaller than large breed [giant] dogs, therefore the two cannot be compared.

    In my opinion, trying to to make a longer-lived giant "breed" domestic dog is canine eugenics. Deliberately arranging reproduction to "make" the desired characteristic of large dogs with longer life-spans.
  13. Andrew Sheldon

    Andrew Sheldon Member

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    Surely all pure bred dogs are basically cross breeds where eugenics has taken place in the past.
    I have always found it very sad that larger dog breeds such as the Great Dane have such short life spans...should we even be encouraging this type of breed..
    Are pure bred dogs such a good thing in the long run, usually having to pay a premium for the breed which creates greedy people, puppy farms and over breeding where traits for the sake of the breed are not to the benefit of the dog itself..
    I'm sorry, I know this forum is based around breed type and named the same but there are times when people take the 'TYPE' breed too far in my opinion...
    If someone out there wants to breed a dog that is big but lives longer and has a happier life I for one do not have a problem with this...
  14. Chris

    Chris Member

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    Malka likes this.
    True and, of course, wolves split and form new packs so no inbreeding between packs. Unfortunately, we have messed with nature so much by wanting a dog to do this, look like that, that we've done them a major disservice
  15. Malka

    Malka Member

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    In the past, yes. But with so many different breeds now, is it really necessary to create even more? It takes generation upon generation to breed a specific trait into [or out of] a particular breed - far longer than a human generation - with no guarantee that the initial reason will either be successful or, most important, that future people will carry on the attempt.

    It would also require far too much in-breeding of the same cross.
    There will always be people willing to pay over the odds for something they desire, whether it is worth it or not, just as there will always be greedy people, puppy farms and over-breeding to supply those desires.

    It would be far better to try to lessen the number of greedy suppliers than produce even more specifically designed types of dog.
  16. McGrane

    McGrane New Member

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    Check your facts, hun. Grey Wolves can get as large as 170lbs and in captivity, have a lifespan of up to thirteen years. I'm hard pressed to think of many large breed dogs which get that big at live longer than eight. (source)

    As to eugenics, literally all responsible breeding is canine eugenics. Every breeder I've ever respected has purposely bred their line with the intention of improving upon their animals with every generation. Sometimes that means breeding out health problems, sometimes that means breeding in a personality trait, or intelligence, or a certain coat color to meet a breed standard better. It's all selective. It's all pointed choices. The only difference between them and what I plan to do is that they are limited in their choices of animals to breed with to a minimal gene pool because they don't want to breed outside their proverbial "race." If you want to bring eugenics into the conversation, then by comparison purebred breeders are the ones which discredit eugenics much the way Hitler did because when you only selectively breed within a limited gene pool with an attitude of superiority, all you're going to end up with is a very pretty, unhealthy, and stupid dog in the long run, as the gene pool gets slimmer and slimmer. I don't say that to be mean - that's science, point blank.
  17. Malka

    Malka Member

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    I am now leaving this thread.
  18. Chris

    Chris Member

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    Malka likes this.
    I'm trying to think of the lady who had a similar ambition before but I can't remember her name. She was going to attempt to produce a small breed dog without health conditions inherent in her new 'breed' by mixing things up.

    We've all, I'm sure, seen some of the results of such trials.

    The labradoodle came about, I believe, to produce a guide dog that was hypoallergenic. Unfortunately, the temperament rarely fits for the intended role as they can be really excitable. Even now, you can't guarantee what temperament you will get in each of these dogs
  19. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    Malka likes this.
    Mating two random breeds together does not create another breed, it creates a crossbreed - often incorrectly referred to as an F1 hybrid. Over many generations you probably could get such a cross to breed true - but it would not look like a Dane, and could have quite different problems.
    First point: Before breeding both partners should be tested clear for all the hereditary conditions which could potentially be carried by both partners. This would mean a full range of dna tests, hip and elbow scoring, heart testing and clear eye certificates. If you are not prepared to invest that, leave well alone, because responsible breeders are already doing at least the available tests that apply to their breed.
    Second point: Although there are breeds which are notoriously short lived - I am thinking of breeds such as Bernese Mountain Dogs here - the No.1 killer is likely to be either heart diseases or cancer. How would you eliminate conditions such as these by cross breeding? By cross breeding, you could just be adding yet another condition into the genetic mix.
    Third point: Not all giant breeds have ultra short lifespans. I have had a more than casual experience with Bouvier des Flandres, which I think you will accept as a giant breed. Bouvs are often thought of as being old at ten, but among the show people there are many examples of Bouvs reaching well into their teens. The oldest I have heard of was 15 and a half. I believe Rottweilers have a similar age range - but they are likely to have higher hip scores.
    Breeders around the world are working hard to try and reduce the incidence of life limiting conditions. Currently there are dna tests for well over 100 conditions, though not all apply to the breeds that you are interested in. Responsible breeders are gradually being given the tools to improve the health and longevity of their breeds, but only very rarely is introducing another breed likely to be the answer; as stated this can just introduce complicating factors, some of which, like HD, are likely to be polygenic and therefore more difficult to eradicate.
  20. McGrane

    McGrane New Member

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    The Bouvier is a breed I'd strongly consider working with as a baseline. It has a lot of characteristics I'd want to carry into the final crossbreed, although they tend not to be as hardy as I'd like, and they are riddled with health concerns.

    I am well aware that it takes several generations to actually establish a new breed with any level of consistency. This would be a very long term project. As to testing for medical conditions, I'd absolutely be investing into securing healthy animals before breeding them. Again, this is a long term project. I'm not interested in doing any of this half assed. I don't want to create a breed which meets my goals but comes with too many health problems to be worth anyone's investment. That's not responsible in the least.

    As to eliminating health risks, I don't suppose there's any real way to totally eliminate, but there are ways to minimize. If I breed a dog with a high risk of cancer to one with no risk of cancer, and then breed the offspring that did not carry the cancer gene dominantly to another dog which didn't carry a cancer gene, then generation three has a minimal risk of cancer as it becomes double recessive, and then triple recessive the generation after. If ever a dog of that linage was bred to another dog with a recessive cancer gene, then of course there would be a chance the gene could go dominant, but with each generation out, the lower that risk becomes. One of the reasons I hesitate to use the Bouvier despite how close it comes to what I want to end up with is because it does have a lot of health risks, and that would be more recessive genes I'd have to account for in the course of breeding.

    Rottweilers, while a breed which has some very fine characteristics, is one I'd prefer to avoid altogether. God knows I love dogs, and while I've met some wonderful Rotts in my time, a few years ago I had a Rott nearly take my arm off, and I'm not honestly sure I could bring myself to own one. I'm 110 lbs. The Rottweiler that attacked me was 160lbs. It was one of those "here's my arm instead of my jugular" situations, and while it hasn't scared me off of dogs in general, or even off of big dogs, it has made me wary of Rottweilers.
  21. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    Malka likes this.
    Riddled with health concerns
    I have no axe to grind as I have never wanted to own a Bouvier, but through a friend have been around them for over 30 years. I have actually come across very few health issues in Bouviers in this country. A tendency to gain weight might indicate hypothyroidism, but could also be just a management problem. Most show stock in the UK is hip and elbow scored. There is an occasional higher than desirable score, but these are not normally bred on from. For a giant breed the scores are pretty low. Bouvs perform well in competition obedience, trick training, and UK Working Trials too.
    It would be great if Mendel's theory applied to all health conditions. If only it was that simple, we would now be well on the way to breeding out all health conditions, though possibly at the loss of type - a breeds characteristic appearance. Unfortunately there are many conditions for which we still do not understand the mode of inheritance, and sometimes there are difficult decisions to be made if breeders are to avoid restricting the pool of genetic material too much.

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