DNA Checked General Chat

Discussion in 'Belgian Shepherd Dog (Malinois)' started by Varmint, Dec 7, 2017.

  1. Varmint

    Varmint New Member

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    DNA Checked

    I am sure that most everyone will "poo-poo" away the results of a doggy DNA test. Well, I rescued a dog from the shelter a few months ago. He was listed as a 6 mos. old Dutch Shepherd. Having my doubts, I sent off "Boscoe's" DNA to Wisdom Panel. The results came back that he was Golden Retriever (50%), Belgian Malinois (25%), German Shepherd Dog (12.5%), Hungarian Viszla (12.5%). Other than the brindle coloring and the ears, this dog is RULED by his 25% Malinois DNA! Boscoe is fun as heck but man, does he like to bite and chew! I give him knuckles and he chews them all down to the size of a golf ball. He's an awesome member of our pack and I am so glad that he rescued my family. God bless the Malinois!

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    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
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  3. Bulldogs4Life

    Bulldogs4Life Member

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  4. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    @Bulldogs4Life Why do you say that the Brindle could come from the Golden Retriever? I have never seen a Golden that was anything other than a shade of gold. Yes, they probably did developed from the yellow 'sports' that used to crop up in Flatcoat litters, but Flatties are all solid coloured too.
    I have had Goldens that had the permissible tiny white chest tick, and I did have a dog that had a black spot on his lower lip hair, but never any other colour but gold on the body.
  5. Bulldogs4Life

    Bulldogs4Life Member

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    Since they are recessive red and therefore not able to produce eumelanin they could potentially hide any such color. There was also a litter of Golden x Malinois that had brindles. It as unintentional, but with known parents. I'd say even with breed histories we can only go back so far, the origins of a breed might be known but how far back can the ancestors of those founders be traced? I'm not a Golden Retriever expert, but from what I understand they came from St John's Water dog (could carry brindle, what is their history?), Tweed Water Spaniel (liver color = chocolate could also carry for brindle history of this breed?). As well as other black and yellow (possible recessive red?) retriever types just as with the Labrador which also carries brindle and tan point.

    Besides the fact it is also proven with genetic testing and seen at times when a Golden or Lab is crossed to a non recessive red dog. These are the genotypes for just a couple of the Goldens tested, of which the 100s tested in the database basically have the same / similar results.
    Within the breed recessive red is set and found to be in 100%, 90% of Goldens tested has either an allele for black or allele for brindle (can be any combo), 100% have at least one allele for tan point (over 60% homozygous, while 37% carry recessive black).

    20171217_132733.png

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    Labs which are related have similar genetics, however only around 77% tested for recessive yellow, as we know and can clearly see there are black / chocolate Labs. 99% likely having at least one allele for dominant black but possibly carrying brindle, 99% with at least one allele for tan point, 25% of those having recessive black, with less than 2% of the vast number of dogs tested having an allele for dominant red/yellow and most all being dominant black it's no wonder tan point / brindle is rarely seen.

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  6. Bulldogs4Life

    Bulldogs4Life Member

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    Speaking on Flat Coats they are all visually black with most probably being homozygous for dominant black (not that its impossible a few could harbor brindle, just not something I've heard and think it's very unlikely. Unlike in the Golden or Lab, it either never existed or was lost), but like their relatives the Golden and Lab tan point is common with 100% having at least one allele for it and 63% having an allele for recessive black.

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  7. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    Ha Ha, I knew you would tie me up with genotypes.
    I think the St. John's Water Dog theory has been dropped, along with those mythical Russian circus dogs. You are quite right about the Tweed Water Spaniel though - which is a problem as they became extinct, and nobody now knows what they looked like.

    According to fairly recent detailed research carried out by Val Foss, et al., it seems that Lord Tweedmouth mated the original Yellow Flatcoat to a Tweed Water Spaniel, but then used an 'occasional' Irish Setter, a second Tweed Water Spaniel, and a Black Flatcoat to establish his own strain of Retrievers at Guisechan. He found that the line bred true to type, and the puppies were placed with friends and relatives, including Lord Ilchester, who also bred the dogs, and these became the foundation of the breed as we know it today.

    The next time I see Val, I will ask her about her views on the likelihood of the breed throwing brindle. Thank you for taking the time to present all your evidence though - I will try to take it in, but to be honest, it makes my head spin, and at 75 there is not enough spare capacity in my brain to internalise much more.
  8. Bulldogs4Life

    Bulldogs4Life Member

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    Lol sorry did not mean it to be confusing o_O

    The basic is that Goldens many times have black or brindle at the K Locus, but they are recessive red, so will always appear visually red. If a dog is homozygous for this trait then they can never have any black hair on their body what so ever. They can appear white like the Samoyed (who also carry black or brindle and tan point), cream, yellowish (mine is a very light yellow almost appearing white), various ranges of red from light to dark.

    The wild Russian circus dog theory is out I know, but I thought it was possible St John Water Dog was used at some point, maybe not. I have seen founding pedigrees listing setter, yellow retriever, spaniel all of what you have mentioned.

    Also Irish Setter is a rich red colored dog, caused by recessive red and is common to carry black or brindle and tan point so that could be the answer right there of where the Golden Retriever gets their colors for visual red and those they hide (black/brindle, tan point), but are capable of producing.
  9. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    .... can never have any black hair on their body whatsoever.
    This puzzled me as I have mentioned my Merlin earlier, who had a black spot of about an inch at the side of his lower lip. I'm back in the '60's here, but he was an extremely well bred boy.
    Do I take it that you have a Golden? I always did intend to have another, but think I have left it too late now. Beagles are a lot easier to prepare for showing!
  10. Bulldogs4Life

    Bulldogs4Life Member

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    CaroleC likes this.
    Was this skin pigment or actual fur? If it was his fur (I'm assuming by measurement it was) then.....Somatic mutations can occur, here is a photo, but with much more black (sorry its a low quality photo, but it is a Golden).

    769cff68d961323a72f493a8e0a9c894.jpg

    Also remember many Goldens are masking black (or brindle) due to being recessive red which this gene causes a defect inhibiting skin cells from producing black pigment- this is why even though a Golden might be dominant black or brindle they will appear red. So anything "going wrong" in fetal development might make it possible for this black to show through and of course there are several unknown causes (and theories) of these somatic mutations.
    In Ball Pythons we have what's called Paradox, it is somatic and non hereditary, same principle as recessive red dogs with black coat pigment (or any other out of place non genetic coat color).


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    Albino paradox - ALBINO like in most species is recessive in the ball python and the snake should be 100% albino but this one has splotches of normal pigment (genetically impossible - but happens with somatic mutation). This is pretty much the same as a Golden showing the black coat.

    d0fa18f38d978dbbd611c279501ec2be--ball-python-paradox.jpg With this paradox not even sure what went on lol they said the parents were Pinstripe and Mojave (names of genes which cause specific patterns)

    To give you or anyone else not familiar, the ball pythons in this photo are Mojave and Pinstripe on top L to R... when paired together they would normally produce more Mojaves, more Pinstripes, Normals -bottom left and Jigsaws (combination of both Mojave and Pinstripe genes) shown bottom right. The above shows some normal and maybe Mojave pattern with washed out and broken splotches and yellow rings and splotches.
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    I find that you get higher chances of these types of things in snakes (and unfortunately possible deformities) probably due to the incubation process.

    Though by going wrong (in dogs/Goldens) I don't mean anything is wrong in general with the dog, or parents or poor breeding, it is merely a matter of any little cell development interruption. Due to the complex development of mammals it is amazing things of a serious nature don't go wrong more often, let alone small harmless things.

    No I don't have a Golden. Yes that's a lot of coat to prepare for show I imagine.
    Last edited: Dec 18, 2017
  11. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    Thank you for your patience and for the explanation Ezee. I have never seen anything like the Golden in that picture! We live and hopefully learn, as you say it is surprising that there are not more abnormalities cropping up in our breeds.

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