Epilepsy in dogs Health

Who else has an epileptic dog?

My dog was diagnosed at around 15/17 months with idiopathic epilepsy. He is currently on phenobarbital and potassium bromide but still has clusters of around 8-10 seizures every 4 - 6 weeks or so. But he is is a dog who loves his live, eats well, gets lots of exercise, has a fab sense of humour, comes on holidays with us etc. and perfectly normal. He is a complete character and an adored member of our family.

If anyone else has a dog with epilepsy please chat here if you wish to.

My name is Pereg and as my picture shows...

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I have epilepsy.

But I am happy and even though I know I am difficult to look after, I know that I am very much loved.

Azz, right or wrong I want to bring the subject of epilepsy into the open. Especially when it shows up time after time as a health problem among so many breeds mentioned on Breedia.

Yes, I do have very strong feelings on the subject because of the few breeders who will not accept that their is epilepsy in their lines, but then it will take more than just me to cancel out the $$$$s

I love Pereg. I do not think that anyone on Dogsey or Breedia who have read me talking about her who can doubt it. And as someone on the Epilepsy List emailed me, following yet another condolence email from me because she had just lost her beloved Cassidy just a few hours earlier:

So you see that it is a subject that touches me deeply and is not, I think, discussed or understood as much as it should be.

Is this the right place to discuss such a subject? For me there are never enough places.

And like many others the first time Pereg had a Grand Mal I thought she was dying, and yet I knew exactly what it was even though I had never seen it in a dog before.

Unlike others, Pereg and I have only been living with epilepsy since 1 April 2011 -and a wonderful April Fool's Joke it was not. But since then I have, with the help of my Vet, studied and learned as much as I can.

Yes I also get help from the Epi List but their information is sometimes not as it should be.

I am lucky with Ram. Who has been a life-saver in regard to my sanity at times. I am under no illusions about the severity of Pereg's epilepsy, but when she is not having episodes she is the happiest, most perfect dog ever. Just look at that face...

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...but I am under no illusions. And Pereg is just a mutt of no known origin and yet there is epilepsy cropping up over and over again in so many pure bred dogs.

What do we do? Well there are many of us trying to pass the message on in other parts of the world - mainly in the US. And there are people like me who do their best to talk about and explain canine epilepsy as best as we can, so that as many people as possible hear about it and know the various options for treatment. And when to accept that those options are past their use-by date.

You have to learn to live with epilepsy, not for it.

And you have to learn when to let go.

You have to learn that "normal" life such as spontaneous "Oh, shall we go our for a meal?" can no longer exist, because your epi is due for medication, or is at the stage where you dare not leave him or her.

And even though you learn to live with epilepsy and not for it - you never stop living for it.

Not if you love your epi like I love my beloved Pereg.

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Back again on my "thing" about epilepsy. You will never get everyone with an epi dog admitting it because somehow it is still considered shameful.

And you will never get all breeders who know that epi is in their lines, admitting it.

I have just emailed someone who had posted on the Epi List "when can I expect the medication to cure my dog so we can have a normal life again?". Her dog had just had its third seizure in three months and her vet had correctly advised that it was far too early to think about medication. I was very careful in what I said, mostly asking questions. Thinking that if only someone had asked me those things three years ago.

I do not know if here, on Breedia, or on Dogsey, is the right place to discuss what is, for some of us, an absolute terror. Not for our dogs as of course they have no idea that there is anything wrong with them.

But how do we get the message across? And yes, I know all the various websites/messageboards/Lists, but you still get people like the one just now, who really does not know what epilepsy means.

I just know that on reading through Breedia and looking up health problems, you see the same word over and over again.

Epilepsy.

So what on earth can I do for both Breedia and Dogsey to try and explain and help? The current article on Dogsey is already years old.

Azz - without trying to make out myself more knowledgeable than I am, I have learned more about canine epilepsy in the last three years than, as Ram, my Vet says, most vets learn in a lifetime.

I know all the epilepsy sites, which ones are mere platitudes and which ones help - and most of the latter are really not much help. And all the fora and Lists - been there, done that, still wearing out the teeshirts.

I know all the AEDs that are used - which ones might help, which ones might not.

I have LIVED with this for three years and yes, I honesty do know what I am talking about.

What can I put in my signature? Cannot do it on Breedia due to limited letters.

And I guess most people on Dogsey know about Pereg.

So what else can I do?

Somehow I have the heart-felt feeling that I must get at least of some of my knowledge through, but you know what? Far too many times I read "Oh yes, my dog used to throw fits".

Well sorry people - canine epilepsy is not "throwing fits".

I am currently slowly reducing Pereg's Pb yet again as her blood plasma level was raised. And you know what? I increase her Pb dosage and it makes no difference to her seizures.

I reduce them and it makes no difference to her seizures.

Canine Epilepsy is not just one disease. And it does not just have one symptom.

It is something that you not only have to live with but you have to learn why - and you know what? You never know why.

But there are certain breeds in the US that are in the process of vanishing due to breeders refusing to acknowledge it in their lines, and at the moment nobody can do anything about it.

So what do you want me to do Azz?

I am, by this thread and my previous thread on Breedia aleady saying how I feel.

And I do not know what else I can do.

Oh I never heard of anyone thinking that having an epileptic dog is shameful, certainly not anyone I know personally, nor anyone on any of the forums, such as Dogsey and the then Ute forum. That is sad for folk having epi dogs to think like that.

I had Loki for 8 years, fitting for all of them since she had been 11 months old, having 40 clusters and had to be hospitalised, then 39 clusters on another few occasions and hospitalised again. I just had to accept it and get on with it. I always got loads of support from all on Dogsey and the then Ute forum and I got good advice from them as well.

She was on Pheno and Potassium Bromide for most of the years I had her but she was so lively and loved life. Her fits dwindled down to about 2-3 every few months, sometimes going longer. She always bounced back after each fit, even after the bad clusters and she always struggled up and went to her toilet, which was inside. She never let it get her down. Loved playing and loved everybody.

The high dosage of her meds went for her liver. Miss you so much, Loki xx

I am sorry Rose - I did not mean to upset you and I miss your beautiful Lady Loki so much. But this is one of the things I try to get through to people - Phenobarbitone can cause liver damage in some epis - but it is only a can and some. It does not mean that it does it in all dogs. Loki was unlucky in that respect - so far Pereg is one of those who it does not affect. It might do in the future, who knows. But another major seizure could just as easily cause her to have a fatal heart attack because unlike some epis who have 30 second seizures, each one of hers [even before her post-ictal behaviour starts], from the time they start until the time she is conscious and physically able to stand up without crashing down again, is somewhere between 10 and 20 minutes. Frequently longer.

They are all different, our epis, and the only certainty about canine epilepsy is the uncertainty of it.

Pereg has been on, for her weight, high doses of Pb - although now reduced from the highest, and even though for the second time her blood plasma Pb level is over the top of the scale, her liver enzymes are thankfully perfect, so it has not caused her any liver damage. Probably the fact that I was told about giving her Milk Thistle, SAMe, and Taurine to help support her liver and she has been taking those almost from the start, has helped. Maybe those enzymes would not be so good had she not been taking them. Who knows. But I was not prepared to take the risk so took the advice I was given.

But then there is always someone who asks "is it worth giving my epi Milk Thistle if he/she is going to die from liver failure due to the Pb?" And people who are currently trialling medicinal cannabis on their dogs because it has been shown to help reduce seizures in a few young children with a specific type of epilepsy. So they spend fortunes on what is basically snake oil. And are slowly beginning to find out that the initial euphoria of a sz-free period goes pear-shaped.

And those who add more and more AEDs [Anti Epileptic Drugs] because the first one is not stopping the seizures, without even being aware that apart from Pb and Kbf, none of the others have been tested on dogs let alone proven to help. And the more drugs you add the less you know which, if any, might help if given on their own.

This is what I want to do. Get people to understand that their is no "one size fits all" and that not all epileptic dogs are the same. I am told that because Pereg has her yearly booster shots, I not only caused her epilepsy but am making it worse each year. The same goes for her yearly rabies shots. Now I do not care what the protocol of each company and country is, here it is yearly shots. And I know 100% that the shots were not and are not the cause of her epilepsy.

Neither is the flea/tick/worm treatment. Oh, and let us not forget the fact that by feeding her raw I am also making her epilepsy worse.

All total rubbish but oh how many people believe it to be the truth.

But at the moment I am fighting a losing battle.

I need to talk more about this to whoever will listen, but I would not know where to stop.

There is just so much ignorance apart from many vets only knowing the single lesson they have about it in med school.

This was said by a Professor Neurology & Neurosurgery at the University of Tennessee

So you see there are so many different types of epilepsy, in both humans and dogs, that are still not acknowledged let alone understood.

By no means do I pretend to know much, but I do know a lot more than most epi owners. And I do have a wonderful Vet who has been teaching me what he thinks I need to know as to how to cope with Pereg's seizures and how to treat them.

I am lucky in having human medical knowledge, and Ram, who is unlucky enough to be epileptic himself, has had the time and patience to explain far more to me than he would any other owner of an epi patient.

I knew that the Pheno did damage to dogs livers - my vet explained that to me from the outset when Loki first took her fit at 11 months old but told me it would help control her fits. The more fits she took, the higher the dosage. She was eventually put on 240 mgs daily (two x 60 mgs morning and evening), then as her fits continued to increase, she was also put on 325 mgs of Potassium Bromide, and when she fitted I had to give her two rectal diazepams but I stopped those as they made her woozy and she staggered when walking. Had she not been on the high dose of Pheno and Potassium B, she would have probably gone to the Bridge during one of her fits. Her fits would last about 4 mins approx. each and if you multiply by 40 fits in two days alone (they actually lasted longer but not as many in three days) her body would not have been able to cope, so she was put on those high dosages.

I never fed Loki raw food - cooked chicken breasts and when she was so hungry for food after each fit, I would chop up one breast of chicken and put it in her large bowl of water, thus giving her food and water at the same time. This did help her.

Once her fits eased off and she didn't take as many, I gave her Wafcol kibble with some tuna in sunflower oil in it, she would eat that and smacked her lips afterwards!

Linda (Lucky Star) gave me good informative sites to read up on epilepsy and also gave me advice, June (Tawneywolf) did as well. You always gave me support as well, Malka, and I always appreciated it.

I just wish that someday, someone would bring something out that would help epi dogs with no side effects that the PB has.

Thanks for everything and hugs to Pereg xx

Having given you support was really all I could do Rose. As of now there is nowhere on Breedia or Dogsey where I can actually give any of the knowledge I have learned.

Not knowledge just garnered from Google but from the many websites to which I subscribe and from which they send me any current information on canine epilepsy and possible treatment.

Nothing will cure my beloved Pereg because there is no cure for her epilepsy. All I can do is medicate her as I consider the right dosages to keep her seizures ad infrequent as ever, and I really me that I medicate her as I consider right for her. Yes, Ram knows what I do and why, and is in full agreement with me.

I know that nothing is ever going to cure Pereg as epilepsy is incurable, but I will never stop my searching for knowledge on the subject, even if I lose her in the process.

You did your very best for Loki, Rose. I am so sorry you lost her but she had a great life with a great owner. Hugs. xxx

Thank you very much Malka. I think that giving support is so helpful to a dog owner whose dog has epilepsy. I know I appreciated it from you and everyone on Dogsey and latterly on here.

I hope and pray that one day a cure can be found for epilepsy in dogs - and in humans.

Hope Pereg is well today.

Again, Malka, many thanks for all your support and kind words.

Hugs and keep up the good work. You could make a completely new thread on both forums and put all your knowledge and all down on it. I am sure it would be pinned to the top of the board and anyone coming onto the forum would be able to see it and learn something about it to help them with their epi dog.

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I think I have been making too many typos [need new computer specs] but I am trying so hard to explain what my aims are.

I know there is no cure for epilepsy, but there is not just one type of epilepsy and even many vets are not aware of this.

Let me try to give an example. Pereg has full-blown major Grand Mal seizures. She has also had a few Psychomotor Seizures which are, according to many experts, impossible for a dog with Idiopathic, ie Primary Epilepsy - only with a dog whose epilepsy is caused by trauma or a brain tumour. But she has had them - maybe three or four - I forget.

Others have said they are Focal Seizures and not Psychomotor Seizures, but both Ram and I know that the experts are wrong as far as Pereg goes. They are not Focal Seizures and in anycase, a Focal sz does not last for hours, the dog's actions are vaguely similar, that is all, and a Focal never goes into a full blown GM.

Because there is actually no definitive knowledge of the many different types of canine epilepsy - why? - because there has still not been anywhere near enough research done into the subject, and just calling it "Canine Epilepsy" is a neat and tidy way of saying that they have no idea about it.

Focals? Partials? Absence? Petit Mal? Psychomotor? No - just call it "Canine Epilepsy" because that is all they actually know.

Why do I think I know so much? I do not think I know so much, but I do know that I know a lot more than a lot of people, because I have been studying it for three years now. Not a lot, I know - my medical training took six years and was never finished even then. But I have the most wonderful vet in the world, who discusses things with me and who sends me papers to read - as I send him information sent to me that maybe he does not get.

And yes, I am the one who chops and changes Pereg's Pb dosage as I consider necessary, although of course I check it out with Ram first. But I know Pereg. I am not saying he does not because of course he does, but he has never seen her have a seizure as somehow I have always coped with them. But he and I both know that the time I telephone and say Ram - it is now time - it will be.

I am currently, very slowly, reducing her Pb again to see what happens, because I was not too happy about her last blood plasma Pb result, even though Ram was not bothered and I had a long chat with the outside specialist laboratory's veterinarian and he was not over bothered. But both known what I have decided to do and know that I will always increase her Pb if I think it necessary. They know that I will not risk my beloved girl.

As was said to me over three years ago, you do not live for epilepsy, you live with it. I am lucky in that I have the time, the knowledge and sufficient understanding to learn as much as I can.

And that is all really.

Thank you Linda. Loki was a pleasure to have and I will always love her.

Hugs to you and big ones to Lord Loki xxxx

My little boy "Larry" has epilepsy too. It started when he was about 2 1/2 he is now on 2 phenobarbital pills a day, and still has one or two about every couple of months..I wouldn't change him for the world though.

Hello Katie - welcome to Breedia to you and to gorgeous little Larry. Strange as it might seem I am delighted to welcome another epi [and his mom] because I think that the more we talk about it on forums other than epileptic specific, the more we can get knowledge across to those who quite possibly did not know that dogs can be epileptic.

Our epi kids are special and like you, I would not change Pereg for the world. I would prefer her to go a bit longer between seizures than she currently is, and that she would preferably not decide to have them on my bed during the night [which requires the bed linen changing] but then I think.

Would Pereg be the wonderful loving girl that she is were she not epileptic?

I honestly do not think she would be.

Aw he is a wee beauty. Our epi dogs are so special - I know my Loki was. The Pheno will help to control his fits. Loki's fits dwindled from having 39-40 fits in two days, to about 3-4 every few months and once she had none for 11 months. I always gave Loki a Milk Thistle capsule to counteract damage to her liver. Malka can give you the name of other meds as well that help.

Big hugs to that wee beauty and welcome to Breedia xx