Grains v Cereals? Help please Diet

Discussion in 'General Dog Chat' started by katygeorge, Mar 5, 2014.

  1. katygeorge

    katygeorge Member

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    Grains v Cereals? Help please

    Ive been looking at foods for Phoebe to see if i can find a cereal free that i can afford. I havnt but i have found grain free that i can afford

    Are they the same thing? or am i being dim :102:
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  3. Malka

    Malka Member

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    Yes and no. Basically grains are the seeds of various plants/grasses. Cereals are usually what processed grains are described as being.

    I do not and would not give Pereg processed grains, nor do I eat them myself. But I do give her various whole grains which I cook for us both. Things like quinoa, millet and barley are not normally described as cereals, and buckwheat [which is actually a fruit not a grain], are fine for her although maybe not for all dogs. I also get various mixed whole wheat [there are dozens of different types], plus red, brown, black and wild rice.

    But as I say, only whole grains and not processed ones.

    So if the food says grain free then it should be cereal free as well.
  4. Azz

    Azz Adminstrator

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    I would have thought grain/cereal was used interchangeably too.

    What is the food Katy? Maybe we can have a look at their ingredients listing.

    You often find that 'grain free' foods contains some pulse/legume varieties, which in many ways can be just as undesirable.

    Sprouting or soaking can help greatly with the anti-nutrients, but this would mean home-cooking.
  5. Carole

    Carole Global Moderator

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    What is your price range?

    I feed Finn a grain free food which is £40 for 10kg which lasts around 4 weeks.
  6. Malka

    Malka Member

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    Some dogs cannot cope with certain foods, be they food grains, cereals, pulses, chicken, beef, lamb, anything really. They develop allergies, skin conditions, and in some cases are blamed for causing seizures in epileptic dogs.

    And others can.

    Some people cannot cope with certain foods, be they food grains, cereals, pulses, chicken, beef, lamb, anything really. They develop allergies, skin conditions, and in some cases are blamed for causing seizures in epileptic people.

    And others can.

    Possibly Pereg copes, likes, and presumably digests as I have never seen any indigested grains [or seeds] in her poos, because I started her off very gradually when I was trying to bulk her food out without adding any more protein - she was already eating loads of vegetables. Now she has a heaped spoonful [the spoon is a bit smaller than a tablespoon] of well-cooked whole grains added to her first "wet" meal. Incidentally, I forgot to add oats to the grains I mentioned in my message #2 and I also add raw pumpkin and sunflower seeds to that meal as well.

    It is the same with medication, skin care products, shampoos, anything and everything.

    Because there is no one size fits all.
  7. katygeorge

    katygeorge Member

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    im looking at wainwrights grain free as they have an offer of if you subscribe to buy it you get every 5th bag free making it work out at around £28 for 10kg, i pay £28 now for 15kg but i dont mind losing out on the 5kg if its better for her where as last time i was paying £42 for 10kg and that was a bit much for me especially as 10kg of food is only going to last 2 weeks
  8. katygeorge

    katygeorge Member

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    this is phoebes current food and looks pretty grain heavy to me -
    Whole wheat, chicken meat meal, rice, maize, oats, chicken fat, whole linseed, vitamins, minerals and trace elements, whole dried egg, brewer's yeast.

    oddley her skin is better on this than anything else ive tried. its skinners large bite
  9. Carole

    Carole Global Moderator

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    Thats not too bad for grain free.
  10. katygeorge

    katygeorge Member

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    Yeah ive looked at a few and its about the best price i can find. I looked at a few and some are sooooooo expensive
  11. katygeorge

    katygeorge Member

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    oh im so rubbish at all this. Ive got loads of food info from crufts of cereal free and normal food. After all my googling in to Malassezia and diet it would seam the thing i should avoid are soy corn and wheat. one said chicken fat and other said potato aswell but as i only found that on one site im not taking it as gospel. Im reading foods that dont claim to be cereal free but that dont have these things in. could they be called something else?? or are there just more things that would be a cereal. help me, i never feel more stupid then when i try to understand dog food.
    All i know is that phoebe has yeasty skin, some foods make sugar when digested, yeast eats this sugar and goes wild all over my dogs skin. I need to try and avoid these foods. i just need somebody who knows about this to say "dont buy dog food with x, y and z in it katy" i know i read a really good artical/webpage about it a month ago and now i ant find it. im getting google fustration. i cant even find the info of smokeybear when she told me all about it and about the probiotic stuff. :(:( feel stupid
  12. Azz

    Azz Adminstrator

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    Don't feel stupid - we all had to start somewhere.

    Look at what the 'ideal' dog food is and go from there. A dog's ideal diet, is its species appropriate diet - i.e. what you might expect wolves to eat in the wild. This is mostly an animal based diet, but it will also include some pre-digested vegetables (probably from the stomach of the animal being eaten) and probiotics (again mostly from the animal being eaten).

    So how could we replicate this?

    You could get some mince - some raw or slightly cooked vegetables, and some probiotic yoghurt or sauerkraut and mix it all together. Phoebe will probably LOVE this :lol:

    That is the very basics. There are prepared diets out there, but, the best ones will also be the most expensive... you may find doing it yourself is not only cheaper, but much better/fresher too.

    There is a good thread on Dogsey by Tarimoor about the Barf diet - have a look here: http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=137215
  13. Malka

    Malka Member

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    Tarimoor's post is what I would describe as my dog food bible. It taught me the basics of raw feeding, although I have altered/added things to suit Pereg, but I still refer to it regularly, and post links to it on Dogsey whenever anyone has any questions about raw feeding.

    It might not work for everyone, and it definitely costs me a lot more than kibble did, but that is because I cannot get pet quality raw but have to buy Pereg's poultry/meat/bones etc from my own poulterer/butcher.

    If you have a look back to my message #5 on this thread you will see the sentence "It is the same with medication, skin care products, shampoos, anything and everything."

    Yesterday I received a 1oz [28g] free sample jar of a face serum with my order from iHerb. Just a tiny amount over my face and neck before I went to bed and I woke up with my skin feeling and looking years younger...

    ...BUT - even though I had only put a tiny dab under each eye, this morning my eyes were exceedingly puffy. I will try it one more time, keeping it away from under my eyes, and if I get the same reaction then out it will go.

    Because as I have always said, there is no one size fits all. In anything.
  14. katygeorge

    katygeorge Member

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    Thats really good, ive copied it so i can go back to it once i know if i can do it.

    The meat and bone bit is the problem - she wont touch them. Thats why i stopped it. Im happy to do the liver kidney bit, veggies and all the other bits. Would the frozen mince you can get in pets at home be a suitable substitution? somebody told me that its minced whole so would have the bones in it?
  15. Azz

    Azz Adminstrator

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    I would just check the ingredients - some of the cheaper 'mince' has filler in it.

    If I had a big enough freezer, I would get chicken heads/feet and buy one of those big grinders - I remember some Bulldog breeder doing that :lol: I think there's a video somewhere, wonder if I can find it... yep here it is lol



    Think that's a different video - he looks more like a puppy farmer :/
  16. katygeorge

    katygeorge Member

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    Feed 2% - 3% of their body weight per day, this should comprise one part meat to one part vegetables / fruits and one part carbohydrate (rice or potatoes are great).

    these are the guildlines on that meat. so phoebe would need 1.3kg of food. but would you go two 3rds meat one 3rd vegis. as i dont really want the carbs.

    the meat says whole meat, 100% meat no additives. Im gonna try her with some chicken feet tomorrow as my step mum got a bit over excited and bought to many then went on holiday.
  17. Azz

    Azz Adminstrator

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    You might find you need to adjust it - if she starts losing too much weight, you'll need more calories.

    You can substitute carbs with fat. In many cultures fat is more prized than carbs - good fat contains powerful immune boosting components, such as Butyrate and other short-chain fatty acids which act as modulators of immunity.
  18. katygeorge

    katygeorge Member

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    More my god im just trying to imagine that amount of food even split in to 2 meals its going to be a pile in her bowl. So far its coming out at £18.50 a week, thats more than i spend on food for myself a week. Im going to keep looking in to it at thats based on pets at home meat and liver/kidney from asda so i do plan on looking a bit more as im sure i can find better prices than that.
    I just dont understand how to decide on amounts if i get her to eat things like chicken wings would it still be 800g of meat regardless of what it is? Im going to speak to our local butcher aswell see what deals can be done there
    (my god this is more confusing than trying to pick a good dry food but ild like to give it a go)
  19. Azz

    Azz Adminstrator

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    Find a local butcher wholesaler and ask if you can buy chicken carcasses (or head/feet if you can grind them). My butcher used to give me free chicken carcasses and other bits that they couldn't sell so long as I bought other meet. So maybe start buying your own meet from a butcher and offer to buy carcasses (that they can't really sell anyway) as they'll usually give them to you :)

    I would get a grinder tho, and find a wholesaler who regularly chucks feet/heads out - that would be ultra cheap and much much better than most dog foods (with the probiotics and veg). This is because Phoebe is a large dog - and she will eat quite a bit or will be forever hungry.
  20. Floppyears

    Floppyears New Member

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    The thing that seems to make him worse (in my opinion anyway) is brewers yeast, which most products have in for the B vitamins, I think. A food that seems to be the best for him is Barking Heads Good hair day, or any of their range actually. I don't even know if this even contains brewers yeast and they just don't list it. I have tried Wainwrights grain free and he was itching within 24 hours, but doesn't get any worse on tinned Chappie.
    Most of Roly's symptoms seem to come from external factors like yeasts and fungi in the air and out and about on walks. This wet mild winter has been a nightmare for him :(
  21. GsdSlave

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