Gun Dog Training or Working Trials Discussions

Hi, I have found a working trials group near me after looking for ages. I'm taking Maddi down to meet them tomorrow for a sort of assessment to see if she's ready to join. Only after speaking to them on the phone i've started to have doubts. They seem really nice and friendly and assured me they wouldn't want her doing any jumps etc but they talked alot about high standards of control, down stays handler out of sight for ten mins etc! and I don't know if they expect the dogs to be at a very high standard of control before they start? Surely not but now even though Maddi is a little angel at obedience training in a church hall and seems to find it all rather easy, I'm not sure if this might be too much as she's only 9 months and still a baby! Still though I think she needs something which is more of a challenge!

I will go tomorrow and see what I think of them and what they think of me and Maddi, but might want to do some gun dog training with her first. Has anyone any experience of gun dog training or working trials training, and would it help to do gun dog training first? Is this a good idea?

When I first started in WT I had been told similar. Don't let it deter you becuase you can never start training too early.

At 9 months you probably just need to be working to the high standards mentioned, not already having them. Your right - she is still a baby.

Lady wasn't doing 10 mins out of sight until she was at least a year old, or more.

I wouldn't worry about it, like any training club you'll know if your comfortable or not. But I think once you get going in WT you won't regret it. Good luck and please keep us informed.

Are you going to Billingshurst? They are a lovely group of bods.

Of course they do not expect you to be at that standard before you start, they are trying to manage your expectations as many people BELIEVE they want to do WT but then when they see the level of training that is required they often back off.

They are usually the "O my dog could do that if I wanted to" brigade.

As I always say, "An ounce of performance is worth a 1lb of potential"

As for being only 9 months old, most of us start training at 7 weeks! So your dog is not too young, if anything could be considered a "late starter" by some.

But I did not find out about WT until my first dog was around 12 months old and he took to it like a duck to water.

I have done both gun dog training and WT training with the same dog (as well as others).

Depends what you want.

If you are a beginner I would concentrate on one discipline at first.

The ONLY issue with doing both is that for gundog work (ie real work on shoots or Field Trials as opposed to Gundog Working Tests) a dog MUST be interested in game and want to find and retrieve it.

We really do not want that to occur in Working Trials.........

There are several dogs in trials that also work on shoots or, like one of my dogs, have the Working Gundog Certificate etc.

But you may wish to attend some WT and some gundog classes first to see which appeals to you most.

The WT club I went to had sections for beginners (basic obedience) then novice (introducing scent, retrieve etc) right up to experts.
You don`t start with the big stuff.
Go along and have fun. If you don`t like it, leave?

I was going to suggest, like SB, just sticking to one discipline, particularly as you are thinking of gundog training to get the obedience for WT. I don't think that is necessay, as I'm sure you will get to that stage with WT. However, if you are keen to do gundog work purely because you want to, go for it.

Helen

Ooooh, a tough decision and one i'll be facing in the future!

I made the decision that any dog I was going to do WT with wouldnt and couldnt be a gundog, simply because i'd want to train it as a gundog too and I think it's wise to stick to just one discipline.

Why? Not saying you are wrong at all, just interested in the reasoning behind it.

Helen

I just think it would be too much for me to try and do with one dog.

Also, I always plan on being a multi-dog owner so hopefully i'd be in the position where I could get a dog to do WT with and a GWP to do gundog work with.

Oh right. Makes sense. Do you know where you are getting your gwp from yet?

Helen

It's a long time in the future yet Helen so havent really thought about it realistically!

There is something pulling me towards Trudvang, I think it may be because his dogs seem to be extremely capable and he makes the most of their versatility. But on the other hand, it would be a great honour to own one of Sharon's dogs! Not sure if I could handle one of Chris's dogs though!

Wherever it comes from, it needs to be black and white!

Hi, your update as requested on me and Maddi's first experience of working trials.

The group which has no name is an informal group which meets up as and when in the Bamber Bridge area of Lancashire. The guy in charge has been doing trials for years and years and is very knowledgeable and welcoming. He has a beautiful young workline GSD and a munsterlander which I had never seen in real life before, it looked like a gigantic springer spaniel to me .

It was a very small group just three other handlers and there dogs, two gsd's and one lurcher. In a field in the countryside where I love to be! I realised if I'm going again I am going to require some much better wellies, as my feet were absolutely freezing!

We started of by working on some heelwork and then I was taught how to begin training the sendaway. She then did a simple track, which she did very well at for her first one. After a bit of a rest she did a slightly more difficult track and she was very good and very focussed.

I got to see the other dogs doing the agility element and even a little bit of manwork. I have to say I was extremely impressed and it has given me a lot of ideas to add into to my own training at home (ie the sendaways and little tracks). Maddi thoroughly enjoyed it and got very muddy, as she is mostly white! (or she was when I originally got her out of the van!) She needed a good bath when I got her home.

I was really pleased with how well she focussed and enjoyed the training. However I don't know which of my two dogs will be more suited to this sport. I need to decide which one I will train? (The other I will also train in some of the skills at home.)

Charley because of her nervyness I had decided could not do any dog sports and I would just have to train her by myself. Obedience in a church hall with barky dogs would be far too much for her nerves. Agility got her too wound up. But this I feel she could do well at, (not comps) but just the training in a field with a lot of space, and few other dogs who are under control and concerntrating on their own handlers. This is think she would enjoy and I could then work on her becomming more accepting of being in the presence of other dogs and have her see they are no threat to her.

Maddi because of her height cannot progress past UD, so that is another consideration.

Next week if its on I am going to take both dogs and let the club take a look at both and see if they can help me with a decision.

What to do??

Why not do both, you will need to give a dog a breather after working so instead of standing around doing nothing you could be training the other one.

It does not matter if you never COMPETE, it will give the dogs something to do, and you will learn new skills and become a better dog handler!

Sounds like you had a brilliant session, i'm very jealous!

Terry yes you are correct SB. He recommended I pick a main dog to train, I can't recall why exactly though?
I personally would like to train both dogs at the training days, like you say when one's worked for a bit she can have a rest in the van and the other one can come out. That is what I will do, unless I'm told not too train the both of them, then I will just have to train one at home. Wouldn't really want to leave one at home alone, so I would be bringing both anyway, so she would be waiting all that time if she couldn't join in? An yes I would rather be working two dogs than standing around getting cold!! Definately!!

I thought it was due to being less than 15 at the shoulders. I thought the jumps could not be lowered after UD?

The jumps cannot be lowered but there are ESS and CS that do the full height jumps.

Size is not everything!

And you will want a pair of neoprene boots for standing around in the cold.

Muck Boots (Derwent Model) I can recommend or Le Chameau Viezenord if you have the pennies.

Waterproof trousers also help to keep the wind and rain out.

He might have recommended training one as it can be tricky if both dogs are very different in outlook when starting out in a new discipline.

But you can always start with two and then make your mind up later on?

Terry's GSD bitch is on breeding terms from Manchester Police I believe? She is lovely, their breeding programme is excellent.

Yeah she is, once she's had one litter then she is theirs. She is a great dog and doing so well for 15 months, I love working shepherds

Sounds like a fantastic first session. I can't wait to get started with Zak.

I would also take both dogs along and see if it is possible to train both.

Can't wait to hear more about how you get on ... oh, and take pics if possible too (would love to see Terry Austin's WL shep! ;-))

Have you found anywhere to train Zak yet?

Have you found him to be very different from your long coat? My long coat is quite happy to snooze in the house once she's been walked and done a little brainwork, I wonder if a workline would be the same or not? So does he settle in the house? Charley has a bit of a nervy temprement are work lines also sometimes like this, or is this more typical of long coats?

On another note I was trying to find out about more Charley's lines ie show/work/obedience/english/german etc so i emailed her breeders and got this reply, which I didn't really think answered my question, what do you all think?
"In the main the Foxfold dogs are what we call, good old fashioned shepherds.
There are very few 'show lines' in the pedigree, but there are some"
So whats in her then???:?

You would love Zazz, so called as she is full of Zazz apparently and from what I saw she was! Absolutely beautiful!

I will update after my next session, an I will see if I can get a pic of that gorgeous dog, and my own gorgeous dogs too! I must warn though Im not the most technical and havent managed to get pics of phone and onto computer yet! I will try!

Of course all dogs are individual, but I find Zak no bother at all. He is actually just as easy - and in some ways easier, than my longcoats. He has strong nerve and a wonderful temperament with the other dogs and the children. He has never tried to chase the hens or the sheep. He settles down at my feet wherever I am and is happy to snooze until it is time to do something again.

My obedience bred longcoat (who is now 10 years) has always been a bit "windy" even with extensive socialisation with dogs and people. She was always very biddable though, and easy to train - but she lacked any real oomph in obedience, while absolutely coming alive doing agility.

My WG longcoat is very aloof with everyone other than me or hubby. He is very independent and likes his own company. He does appear to have plenty of drive for tracking and searching but wouldn't have strong enough nerve to do any sort of protection work. He is a sensitive wee soul.

They are all lovely in their own right and of course I adore all three, but I have been VERY impressed (so far) with Zak and I also prefer the more natural look of the WL sheps.

I would love to see a photo of Zazz. Is she a sable?

Also, I have just realised I have never seen a pic of your dogs, so it would be fab to see them too Was Charley bred by Foxfold then? If so, she is English obedience lines (probably with the odd WT dog in her pedigree?). Flame is half Foxfold lines.

I have two or three choices for WT training in this area. All involves some sort of travel - some further away than others, but the nearest club trains on Friday morning, which could work for me, as my son is in nursery on a Friday morning. The other clubs train at weekends, which are not really suitable for me unfortunately. The nearest Schutzhund club is over 2 hours away and they also train only at weekends. I am starting a formal obedience class with Zak next month, and will join the WT club once we have that course under our belts.

Look forward to hearing more about how you get on

Working Trials Lesson 2: Charley and Maddison

Well after freezing feet last week I ordered some Muck Boots (classic tack) ones. My feet are kept lovely and warm in them, although as soon as they arrived the weather began getting warmer anyway!

This week I took both Charley and Maddison and trained one while the other one had a break. Did some heelwork with Charley first and Charley who has faultless heelwork in the back garden, quite good heelwork when she's been walked as an only dog, and not so good at all heelwork when she's been walked with another dog, went completely to pot and wouldnt look at me once! It must have been all very interesting and distracting watching various dogs doing long jumps and send aways! Anyway she then got her chance at the send away and absolutely loved it, she did really well for a first go and I was really pleased with her. Ive got her a new ball on the rope toy and am building her drive for it atm, which is coming along nicely.

The best surprise of the day was how well Charley behaved! Charley has always been good in a training environment e.g. outdoors dog obedience classes (wouldnt take her to a church hall one!) but is very gobby to other dogs when on walks, she lunges and barks at nearly every dog she sees and I dont let her off the lead unless Im certain no other dogs can catch us unaware. I dont understand why her behaviour is so different but today we were in a public field with people walking their dogs near us and she didnt behave badly once and had a little play with some of the other trials dogs! I dont understand her! Then on our afternoon walk was lunging and barking at dogs again!!!

Both girls did good on their stays, but I need to work on Maddi's down stay! Maddi was picking everything up really well today and looked like she was enjoying herself! Both were exhausted when we got home and Maddi has barely moved since 1pm. Charley went for another walk this afternoon but it was because I wanted to as it was sunny, she wasn't bothered!

Terry has again said I need to make a decision about which dog I'm going to train. He said an experienced handler could adapt to two different dogs, but as I'm new to trials I should pick one and not flit between the two! How can I choose between them, they both love it and both in my eyes have lots of potential! I am going to see the NW championships this weekend so maybe that will help me decide! Is anyone else going to see this?