I have just been shown the rules for these classes where of the 2 qualifiers one must be a border collie one anything but a border collie, now it states that a collie cross will be classed as a xbreed & hence qualify as anything but a border collie. Does this mean if a border collie is mated to a working sheepdog the offspring would compete in this competition as non border collies. I find this ruling very strange. What do others make of it?
Here's my simplistic and totally uninformed answer: if it looks like a Border Collie, sounds like a Border Collie and (God forbid) smells like a Border Collie, then the likelihood is high that it is a Border Collie! Snorri :twisted:
I find it really odd. When the ruling was first there one BC one other I thought it was because in most obedience classes BC/WS win nearly everything but at the last class my friend was in a Belgian Shepherd came first, she was 2nd butthe 2nd qualifier was the border collie who came 10th & I think that was not a KC registered collie so under the new interpretation of the rulesevenit would not have qualified. Very odd in my opinion. Something needs sorting.
You are writing about the KCGC Special Pre B Stakes I presume ? WSD are dogs that do not have 2 KC(BC)/ISDS registered parents & are on the Activites register a Reg BC bred to a WSD(non KC reg BC)/non ISDS reg, are classifed as WSD not cross breeds So if all the other 8 dogs after the first are X breeds or other breeds than the 10th dog that was a BC/WSD would qualify. No confusion that I can see
If a BC was mated to a `WSD` the resulting pups would be...BCs - a WSD is a BC ;-) ABCs, [ Anything But Collie ] means no BCs nor their crosses so my Lurcher for instance, as he is half BC, would not be eligible for ABC, nor would my T`Akaya who is half BC, [ other half Jack Russell ]. So if a dog is known - or fairly believed by the owner - to be full or part BC they are not eligible for ABC. The KC in their snobbery are the one`s who call BCs a `WSD` if they have no papers, anyone could register a Great Dane as a `BC with no papers` and it will come back as WSD, it`s not about being crosses, it`s just KC snobbery as far as the registering of them goes.
I agree they are all collies Patch its just that the form we were looking at seemed to say collie crosses would now be regarded as mongrels & so elegible for anything but a border collie. & so the way I read it your collie crosses would now be eligable for ABC which I find weird with their attitude to Working sheepdogs, who I thought were unregistered border collies & border collie crosses. Think I'm glad I'm not eligible to judge those classes. Though perhaps I misunderstood,looks like I'm going to have to part with £3 to purchase the pamphlet for myself so I can reread it at my leisure, & really establish what it says.
A BC cross is a BC cross, not a WSD - a WSD is a BC, not a cross. T`Akaya has Crossbreed on her Activities register papers, as does Fluke on his. My full BCs, [ including the ones which went into rescue with full pedigree`s ], have WSD on their papers, much to my anger, as there is no such breed as a `WSD`, its a job title, which should imo be reserved as a mark of respect for the BCs and other collie breeds which do actually work. In agility,ABC means no Border Collies or crosses thereof so everyone knows where they stand on that, it would`nt make sense to not do the same in all activities Please do let us know if you find out anything more concrete, it would be interesting to see where they draw the line and if it`s down to recent changes it would be interesting to see if it does filter through to agility as well, boy would it cause confusion and bother if it did though
The non WS/BC rule was brought in as it was "Wrongly" assumed that the collies would wipe the floor with the other breeds!, However it has turned out to be the other way around. A collie in these competitions would be a BC collie with Breed papers, A ISDS collie, A WS with full history, a found on the side of the road & rescued collie with no history. A collie would not be say a BCx sheltie, BC x ASD ,that would LOOK like a collie. In the early days of the competition Collie Crosses had to be put into the collie department, but its recently changed. Personally i think the top two should go through, end of sports.In from the results ive seen these certainley wouldnt all be colies!!!!!
Oh for goodness sake Patch, we are talking of the KC definition & regulations here not off topic on to your personal hobby horse of all dogs that look like BC's being BCs In the eyes of the KC for the KCGC they treat dogs registered on the activities as WSD & nothing you can say or do will change that. they accept that KC reg WSD & BC's are the majority of obedience dogs & this class was brought in as a taster for Obedience & to encourage handlers with other breeds to complete & in fact the oppsite is now true as Mish has written) There are many dogs registered as WSD that have other breeds in their pedigrees & so calling them BC's because they look like BC's is for example like calling collie x poodles Beardies because they look like beardies. I know someone who bought a supposed ISDS registered BC puppy-he had terrible CEA & was in all essence blind-his father was a well know stud dog who had never before produced a puppy with CEA-DNA tests were done & the ISDS was not the father. Now according to you the puppy was a BC because it looked like a BC, but the father was of unknown breed(no other BC's males on the property),but the DNA showed otherwise. Any dog with a BC/RC/SS/ASD/NSDTR in it's pedigree(& probably other breeds)could be a carrier of CEA so the puppy could in fact be a X breed. The ISDS call all the dogs registered with them WSD(or BC)& unless you are desperate to show your dogs in breed or breed from them to produce BC's for the show ring. It really doesn't matter what the KC calls them. It is not a name for a dog that works sheep in the eyes of the KC it is what they call dogs of the BC type that do not have parents that are ISDS/KC(full) registered parents. QED The only reason I would not have a litter by a KC reg WSD from Jessie is not snobbery, but the other breeds that are behind most WSDs. I will(if she ever comes in season)be using an ISDS dog to get back to her breeding's roots So to get back to the topic of the posting-if a dog is KC reg as a BC or WSD they qualify if they are the highest placed dog of this "type"in the class. All the others qualify if they are the highest placed dog in their catagory. E.G. an ASD x BC is a X breed(not a WSD) a KC reg WSD x BC is not a X breed the KC class them as WSD
I thoughly agree with you there. In the last three competions I've been to with my friend who is working in this class it has not been a collie who has come first or second. Much fairer to me to just have first & second qualifiers whether they are collies or not. Its not as if there are loads of chances to compete in these classes they seem to be few & far apart.
