SA syndrome in ancestors Questions

Discussion in 'Akita' started by kyuubi, Oct 4, 2018.

  1. kyuubi

    kyuubi New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Name:
    vsalx

    SA syndrome in ancestors

    Hello, I hope soon to have a baby akita inu and I already set my eyes on a litter, but one of the ancestors is marked to have SA syndrome(grandfather of one parent). Also one of the other offsprings of the grandfather also have SA syndrome marked in the pedigree.
    My question is how much should this worry me?
  2. Registered users won't see this advert. Sign up for free!

  3. Malka

    Malka Member

    Likes Received:
    5,730
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Juli
    I would not buy a puppy that had SA syndrome in its background, and definitely not if another offspring of that same grandfather had the same syndrome.

    I am not even sure if you could get pet insurance for your possible puppy as it is a hereditary skin disease and yes, it should worry you.

    I am sorry if this is not what you want to hear, but I would suggest looking for a puppy with SA-free background.

    And a grandfather is not really an ancestor - it is much closer to the puppy you want.
  4. who owns who

    who owns who Member

    Likes Received:
    230
    Gender:
    Male
    Name:
    Marc
    kyuubi likes this.
    I’d not heard of this before but started to read about it. I would find a different puppy. It seems to me irresponsible of the breeders to be using the offspring of the grandfather for continued breeding but as I’ve just started reading about it I don’t really know.
  5. kyuubi

    kyuubi New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Name:
    vsalx
    Yes, it's what I was thinking. But then how do we know if SA syndrome was not marked in the pedigree in the parents/grandparents, that it is actually SA-free and just not noted. (I am sorry, English is not my first language, so I may not express myself correctly)
  6. Malka

    Malka Member

    Likes Received:
    5,730
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Juli
    Firstly, do not worry about English not being your first language, you are perfectly understood. :)

    If the dog/parents/grandparents were SA-free, it might be noted on their pedigree. It would only be noted if the dogs in question did have SA. Why mention a syndrome if it was not a possibility and therefore noted in their pedigree?

    Think of all the syndromes that can be passed on in any breed. Any responsible breeder would not use that dog/bitch for future breeding.

    It sounds like, from the pedigree, that the puppy you want has SA syndrome in its background, As has another offspring of the same grandfather. Therefore it is in their line. Those dogs should not be bred from as this is a hereditary skin disease - why it was marked on the pedigree could have been a warning that any future offspring carry the syndrome.

    No, I would not buy a puppy from that line.
  7. kyuubi

    kyuubi New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Name:
    vsalx
    Thank you very much, Malka! :)
    Yes, I agree with you regarding a puppy from that line.

    But what I meant with my second reply is:
    if I open pedigree for another line, and neither of the parents and grandparents of that line are marked with SA syndrome - I assume the line is SA free.
    But is it possible that one of the grandparents, lets say, actually have SA and the pedigree is not updated and is not marked.
    In other words are the breeders forced somehow to update this kind of information, so when I look into a pedigree I can be sure there is no missing info and all the dogs are healthy.
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2018
  8. Malka

    Malka Member

    Likes Received:
    5,730
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Juli
    Are these pedigrees from a legitimate Kennel Club or just what is written by the breeder? I am sorry but I do not know where you are, hence my use of "legitimate" and I hope I have not offended you.

    If, one of the grandparents has SA and you get the pedigree from the Kennel Club in your country, then that Kennel Club should have been informed.

    Breeders can say anything they want. Many years ago I used to breed Griffons and was a registered UK Kennel Club breeder [actually my affix still belongs to me]. In those days there were no tests for any problems/diseases - it was up to other Griffon breeders to pass on what information they had heard of.

    The UK Kennel Club in those days did not keep records. When I had puppies I paid the UK KC to be registered in the names I chose, and under my KC Affix. In those days each puppy registered with the UK KC cost me £5. When I sold a puppy I had to pay another £5 to the KC to transfer the puppy to its new owner. Who had to pay the KC another £5 to get the puppy registered in their name. And that was a lot of money in those days.

    Regarding pedigree forms - in those days nearly every dog food manufacturer used to give a pedigree form which the breeder, registered or not, could fill in whatever they wanted. The pedigree was not registered with the UK Kennel Club.

    Now it is possible to register a puppy as not for breeding and not for showing. So I could not get a puppy that was not for breeding or showing registered as such. Those puppies were sold as pets and I did not give the initial KC registration paper over, nor did I transfer the puppy to them. I still have them in a box somewhere. And no, puppies sold without papers were much cheaper. Not that I ever made money from breeding but that was not why I bred. My mentor and I were trying to make sure that the puppies were healthy. And they were, even though it was not thought that they were suitable for future breeding, or showing.

    Wherever you are, no, breeders cannot be forced somehow to update any kind of information. It is, unfortunately, a case of Caveat Emptor - let the buyer beware.
  9. kyuubi

    kyuubi New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Name:
    vsalx
    Thank you again for the information. You confirmed my suspicion. I was looking at http://www.akitapedigree.com/ for the pedigree information.

    Also sorry, I just now saw there is another forum for Japanese Akita, so I mistaken the place for the thread, but it was very helpful. :)
  10. Malka

    Malka Member

    Likes Received:
    5,730
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Juli
    kyuubi likes this.
    You can post wherever you want - we will still see it and respond as best as we can. Whether it is under Akita, as this is, or Japanese Akita. If you would like this thread moved to Japanese Akita, maybe contact one of the Mods to please move it - but that is up to you.

    Regarding the website you mentioned - it is just a website and can not be guaranteed, however it does give a Disclaimer - so to be honest I would not trust anything that is posted there.
  11. GsdSlave

    GsdSlave Member

    Likes Received:
    2,012
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Vee
    kyuubi likes this.
    Not necessarily, not all breeders’ will do all health tests.
    Here in UK health test requirements for akitas are (hips = requirement and Eye testing = requested. .)
  12. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

    Likes Received:
    3,259
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Carole
    kyuubi likes this.
    I am interested that the SA sufferers have been marked on this pedigree, and to me this indicates that the breeder is being honest and open about the incidence of this condition. From what I read, there are no lines that can be identified as clear, and the breed clubs in the UK and America are working hard to jointly raise funds and supply DNA samples in an attempt to identify the pattern of inheritance.
    I have no insider breed knowledge, but would rather support a breeder who has an interest in health testing, and will declare those incidences in the interest of the breed. Your question is a very sensible one, and my advice would be to have a talk to the Breed Health Co-ordinator of the breed club for the country that you live in. Failure to disclose a condition doesn't mean that it isn't there.
  13. Malka

    Malka Member

    Likes Received:
    5,730
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Juli
    Carole - of the breeder is being honest, why is he continued to breed dogs with known SA?

    The link given is not the UK Kennel Club nor the US equivalent.

    It is a link to a site where everyone can post what they want.

    The condition is there. It is stated on that site.

    Would you purchase a puppy with such a condition?

    I know that I would not.
  14. kyuubi

    kyuubi New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Name:
    vsalx
    Thank you again all! :)
    I suspect the breeder didn't know the dog would be affected by SA, as I've read that the syndrome could develop anywhere before 7 years of age, sometimes after that, too.
    This could've happened recently, otherwise sounds really irresponsible.
  15. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

    Likes Received:
    3,259
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Carole
    But you would buy from someone who doesn't disclose a problem which occurs throughout the breed? To be able to eliminate any condition, you first need to identify it and understand the pattern of inheritance. This can only be done by breeders being open about the problems that they know lies behind their stock.
    DNA research is proving worthwhile for so many conditions, and the UK and USA breed clubs are showing a determination to address this condition. Until this happens, there will be a risk wherever you buy from. I still think the Breed Club is the best place to go to for informed advice on this condition.
    See www.japaneseakita-inu.co.uk (or your country's equivalent), and click Health.
  16. kyuubi

    kyuubi New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Name:
    vsalx
    No, I didn't say I would buy in this condition. I just tried to say that the breeder could've not known of the SA condition of the dog before he continued the line and thus why it was bred. But it's just a suggestion.
  17. Malka

    Malka Member

    Likes Received:
    5,730
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Juli
    Carole, if the breeder knew of the SA and mentioned it on the pedigree - the breeder knew that there was SA in the line.

    You do not say "there might be whatever in the pedigree".

    That breeder specifically said that the grandfather and another offspring, suffered from SA.

    Would you buy a dog that had obvious hereditary faults?

    I would not.
  18. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

    Likes Received:
    3,259
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Carole
    I'm not saying buy one of the other, only that I would rather support a breeder that is prepared to be open, and hopefully have tried to do something about it. DNA testing is proving to be the way forward for conditions that appear not to be polygenic, or influenced by the environment. In the UK, all breeds, have been required to appoint KC Breed Health Advisors from this year, and the most up to date information will always be available from the parent Breed Club. Openness is essential, and the results of all tests, affected, clear or carrier, need to be available for public scrutiny.

    Purely as an example, Beagle breeders have DNA tests available which allows them to screen for four major hereditary diseases in their stock. The lists of affected, clear and carriers, for each condition are available to view on the KC website. (This year has also seen the launch of a fifth test, for Lafora progressive myoclonic epilepsy, and there is now research afoot which, it is hoped, may disclose a marker for Steroid Responsive Meningitis).

    Our old geneticists would have been really excited by what is on the horizon, but it seems there is not a DNA test for SA yet. For now, the best thing would perhaps be to ask your breed club health representative, or visit and have a talk to one or two experienced breeders.

Share This Page