Hello to all dog lovers - GSDs, many questions! Questions

I think youve had great replies from experienced GSD owners. I dont own a GSD so I cant really give you much breed specific advice. I do have a soft spot for the GSD's but if I'm honest I'm not sure I could handle the hair (when its not on the dog ) If I ever did go for one I'd probably go for WL tbh. Just wanted to wish you the best of luck on your puppy search really!

Oh and I'll look forward to pics of your dogs and the new pup when he arrives

As promised, here are a few more pics of my lad.

These are the two photos that helped me fall in love with him initially





And a couple of other favourites (I have soooo many!)

I know he is the dark sable, rather than the black/tan you like but ....

.... but he is stonkingly gorgeous isn't he! xx

*Swoons at the pics*

I love seeing pics of your boy. He's just such a magnificent dog.

Thank you Hanlou I can't stop going on about how much I adore this dog.

The only Czech dogs you will find that are traditional Black saddle rich tan/red are based on showlines - the reason being is that in the 30s GSDs were crossed with the original border patrol dogs a native Czech breed, this breed only comes bi-colour occasionaly one with yellow face, hence why the dogs from the working line from the Eastern Block countries are not black/tan saddlebacks or blanket backs
I only have male GSDs my current being German/Korean breeding WGSL his temperment is 200% you wont find a more mentaly stable dog around he can go anywhere including acute psychiatric units, his level of obedience is very good but he wouldnt make the grade as a working animl as his defence drive is low and he has high tollerence

He's quite quite gorgeous, you can see his personality shining out of the pictures. He must be a joy. And yes, I'm certainly beginning to change my mind about the colouring - especially if I ended up with a fantastic lad like yours

Surely both genes and training have a part to play? Both Dido and Phoebe were extremely well socialised and introduced to new things and people by their breeders before they came home with me. I continued the process from day 1 and both are outgoing confident dogs - pretty well 'bomb proof'. Enfys never really saw anyone apart from the breeder and has always been wary of new things, people and situations in spite of my best efforts to get her out in the world. I've often thought that had I not made such efforts she would be a classic case of fear aggression. As it is she's skittish and worried about anything new but never ever shown any signs of aggression. Maybe it is in her breeding but I'm sure her early start in life didn't help.

I used to be a huge believer in socialisation as the be all and end all. I still think it is a hugely valuable tool.

However most the dogs I know defy it:

BMD - got at 8 weeks from a breeder who breeds them outdoors, little interaction with indoor life. He lived in rural France with few visitors, never saw cars, kids etc.
He is totally bomb proof. Knock a chair over, drive a tractor in to the house, prod him he will not react. He is friendly and loves anyone and everyone.

Buhund - got at 12 weeks. Made a socialisation list of everything I wanted to expose her to. She is very nervous, and suffers from aggression towards people as well as many objects and traffic despite being exposed.
I recently saw a behaviorist who said that contrary to many peoples opinion socialisation is not everything, genetics play a huge factor and some dogs are just not born mentally or physically equipped to cope in all circumstances.

Another GSD - From a great breeder. Didn't get out of the house much but did have lots of visitors. She's aloof but totally unphased by anything.

So in my opionion; socialisation helps but genes will always shine through - you will either be working with or against them.
Just as you do with breed traits.. can you teach a hound recall? Yes, is it harder than teaching a GSD, probably...

I have to agree with the above - although Im not talking about GSD's here
but
Ben I socalised the life out of fairgrounds busses shopping centers training classes everything
and he is bomb proof - to everything I have socalised him to

But something new - like a lift in a hotel - and he cant cope so well

a friend of mine got a puppy (BC) from a farmer who they socalised loads and he is a great dog
a year later they got his litter sister who didnt make the grade as a working dog
She was socalised to nothing but came from bomb proof parents
when I say nothing - she knew only 4 people, border collies and sheep, she was never in a house or a car or a town or a beach

and she just takes everything in her stride (except for poodles)

Get your point - silk purses and sow's ears and all that. Guess I've been lucky with mine. So here's a question: how much can you tell about a puppy's future temperament from the parents? Obviously there are no guarantees but if you get a pup from very stable parents from good lines does it mean you'll probably end up with a stable reliable dog or just that you're tipping the odds in your favour?

I think you are setting yourself up for a higher level of success if you get your dog from a good breeder who takes temperament as seriously as health, ability etc.
I am sadly now a bit of a skeptic as my dogs parents were lovely, and I socialised my dog a lot, yet my dog just has the temperament she has and it is an ongoing battle to condition her against it.

However, the behaviourist said; Very few breeders ACTUALLY breed for temperament. They all say they do, but there are other strong factors like how well they do in shows etc. She is certain that if my breeder looks back honestly that there will have been slight nervousness in one of the dogs in my bu's lineage.

Perhaps the difference with a WL is that if they do not excel in their area then they are not bred.

I think;
- Look at the parents and try to see them in a variety of situations; not just their home. How do they respond around other strange dogs, people, traffic, down the road etc.
- Ask the breeder what they look for in a dog when they breed. Do they temperament test, if so how?
- What pre-socilalisation do they do with young pups? Different textures, noises, sounds etc.
- Never feel sorry for a puppy. Don't get the one at the back, the one that shakes, that lacks confidence to begin.
-Have the parents got any KC awards; bronze, silver, gold.

I never saw my dogs parents out of the house setting. I know her parents did well at shows which are crowded, bustling environments but I never saw them anywhere else.

Kestral wasn't the puppy in the corner (there were none), but equally she wasn't the most confident puppy at the front either.

Even from 4 months as a young pup she had no interest in socialising with strangers like other puppies do so perhaps that should have set alarm bells off too.


I'm sure you will be fine it's just something to be mindful of.
Others may have better advice in what to look for. I have just learned the hard way that genetics can over rule socialisation so it's imperative you get it right.

Good luck in your search

Temperament is genetic, this is why it is important to breed from temperamentally stable stock.

The socialisation that takes place both in the nest and with the new owner enables the dog to reach its full genetic potential, whatever that might be.

You can paper over the cracks, and many dogs APPEAR to the untrained eye to be stable, but often that is down to good management and handling.

I cannot overemphasise the importance of only breeding from temperamentally sound stock preferably which has been tested via

Temperament Tests
Showing
Working

I prefer the former as these tests cannot be "trained" for ie there is not a written down list of specific exercises only a rough outline of what will be evalulated.

You are also not just looking at the sire and dam but previous generations.

Thank you smokeybear and WhichPets for your advice. I know it's not possible to be 100% certain about all the variables but I feel I'm heading into unfamiliar territory going from pet bred dogs to WL and I just want to make sure that I'm making an informed choice and doing the right thing for me. Certainly with everything I've learned since joining this forum I feel much more confident about making the right decision.

Lupilu

I brought my new GSD pup home 2 months ago. He is a WL dog from a local breeder and his sire was described thus:

Buzz is a medium sized, short coupled, heavy coated, dark coloured black and tan dog. Bred from full working lines, but without a manic high drive.
He is extremely agile and a very happy, quiet dog with a genuine steady disposition. Buzz’s passion is simply to please.
Exceedingly intelligent, yet really level headed and calm. He is also excellent with dogs, children and other animals and is faithful and loyal. Buzz has a real glint of mischief in his eyes and his progeny would do well in a family environment or as working/obedience dogs.


My two previous GSD's (taken from show kennels as pups at 8 weeks) were both on the nervous side and although happy with children, they were very suspicious of men. No idea why as they had not had any kind of a bad experience or incident.

My new pup is the exact opposite, and so far as temperament is concerned he is a clone of his sire. The description above fits my new puppy exactly, confident, fantastic with everyone, eager to please and shows his pleasure at meeting strangers with a confident wag of the tail and a lick of hand, or the face if allowed. I have socialised him from 11 weeks old and almost everyone he meets goes out of their way to say hello. I am stopped in the street and on the local bridlepath by all who pass to tell me what a lovely puppy he is. So in conclusion i have to agree with SmokeyBear .....its all about genetics.

My goodness, the description of your pup's sire sounds like the dog everyone looks for - certainly what I'm looking for ! I'm unlikely to be doing schutzhund so I'm not necessarily looking for a high defense drive and the most important thing is that I can take my dog out into the world and be relaxed and proud. Obviously health is equally important and the next thing is brains, desire to work and trainability. Sounds like you've got the basis for a wonderful dog in your pup and needless to say he's absolutely lovely I guess the next obvious question is can you give me the name of his breeder?

Most Schutzhund dogs do not HAVE a high defence drive, it is not required.

He is a Rockforce puppy. His sire is Buzz (DORNHOLZ CERBERUS AT ROCKFORCE) and can be seen in my previous posts.

My puppy was the only long coat in the litter born in January. Having had 2 short coats previously i particularly wanted a long coat and i was lucky to have pick of the litter. Interestingly he doesn't shed any hair when i brush him. Maybe this will change when he gets older but at the moment we have a house free of GSD hair. My wife is ecstatic

Current or planned litters can be seen here.
http://www.rockforcegsd.co.uk/our_litters.html
http://www.rockforcegsd.co.uk/our_litters.html
http://www.rockforcegsd.co.uk/our_litters.html

what is the dams name - this male is the 1st workline this stud dog owner as had the others have been a mix of lines

Thanks for the info they look like lovely dogs will check them out further in the morning.

Don't want to spoil the honeymoon but our Dido didn't shed at all until she was nearly 2 and got her adult coat. She started shedding then and I don't think she's EVER stopped in the 9 years since!! :? We've always had long coats but next one is going to be short. Since moving to Wales they are constantly wet and muddy so I'm hoping a short coat will be a little easier.