Physical differences need help (between NIs and UTs) Questions

ok I DONT want this to start a massive dispute. but if anyone can help then it is appreciated. I work in a rescue center on the odd occassion dogs may be brought in that can cause confusion when identifying the breed, is there ANY physical differences between NI's and nutes? ie ear set/tail set size etc so that we can look at a dog and say thats definately a NI or Nute and then possibly get onto the appropriate breed rescue or in fact rehome the dog letting the new owner know the breed to do some research if they want. thanks in advance for any constructive information.

Mo

I am not an expert but I think Utes can sometimes have a longer coat but not always?

whilst they both spring from the same 'tree' as it were, the NI's are usually larger boned and heavier. Utes are a bit more 'streamlined' as regards the coat, NI people are trying to breed the long coat out whilst the Ute is acceptable as either double coated (short haired with a wooly undercoat) like my Maelona or rough coated (long haired) like my Cariad. Blue or odd eyes are also acceptable in an NI but not in a Ute.
However the older dogs still look very similar, it was just we started going down different paths and now the younger dogs being bred are very different, especially facially I think.
The other thing we are trying to do is to get all puppies microchipped before they leave their breeder, that way if they do end up in the pound or in rescue we can at least start tracing them back to the breeder and then the owner.
The people to contact if you do come across such a dog are either Julie Kelham (NI's) or Nadia Carlyle (Utes) both members on this forum. They will then be able to sort out between them which the dog is. Hope this helps

Thanks I will print this portion if you dont mind to keep as reference for the future if thats ok?

Mo

if you google the utonagan club. com you will find the breed standard there. Anyway if you find a possible NI/Ute you can always come on here and tell me as well and I will notify the relevant people

Re the coats, I board this one and its an NI.
Dawn.

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One of Mys's dogs is extremely long coated, much longer than the one you show, but as I said the NI are trying to breed this out, but it will be a good while before they do.
I have loads of piccies of the original dogs at Eddy's and a lot of them were very heavy coated.

If I was looking to tell the difference, the biggest thing I'd look for is "fluff" around the ears. From the pics I've seen I'd say that the latest Utes are a lot more likely to have fluffy hair around the ears than NIs. Utes are, IMO, proportionally lighter in frame than the NI also. But it does depend on how old the dog is, as someone has said they do look very similar if bred before or around the split period.

I'm not an expert BTW, it's just how I would tell the difference between the two.

in the NI breed standard a long silky coat is a fault, but any colour of eye is acceptable.
in the Ute standard short or long coats are acceptable and blue or odd eyes are a fault.
We do have both types of coat unfortunately, so it does get confusing. But the facial features are quite different really, in fact the NI is a heavier boned dog and even the faces are bigger.

Think about it though, the dogs that end up as rescues are hardly going to conform to the breed standard are they? Blue eyes may be a fault in Utes as are silky coats in the NI, but a breeder with £££ in their eyes isn't going to care are they? :-(

Not saying that all NI/Ute breeders are puppy farmers BTW, before I get jumped!

there is a dog in Ute Rescue at the moment who was chipped and that is how it was found who he was. The breeder actually chipped him and he was then traced back to her. He was found in the pound (ooh that rhymes )
and from what can be gathered had had a pretty rough time of it overall. I don't think any Ute or NI Breeders are in it for the money particularly to be honest, because if you bring the pups up correctly, give them first innoculations, chip them etc I think you probably will end up covering your expenses if you are lucky and nothing horrendous happens. They are little gannets when it comes to feeding them, and Mum has to be kept going as well remember. I intend to chip any pups I may breed so as to ensure that I am contacted if anything really bad happens and they end up in the same position as the poor chap in Rescue.

There's bound to be some NI/Ute breeders out there breeding purely for money. I really hope not, but there's always one isn't there, in all breeds? Plus there are all those out there breeding GSD x Husky etc trying to make a quick buck.

My point was, given the likelihood that a dog ending up in rescue is not a well bred dog, is it not better to give the general appearance rather than what is or is not breed standard?

Just a thought, know it's off topic! ;-)

well I don't really agree that the majority of dogs ending up in rescue aren't well bred. Sometimes for whatever reason a dog is re-homed or sold and the people doing this don't maybe ask the questions they should or are taken in by someone. Then the inevitable happens and they tire of the dog and maybe it even gets passed on again, or they decide to put it in rescue because they really can't be bothered with it any more because it needs exercise/feeding/attention or whatever. Maybe they just dump it and it is picked up.
The breed standard at least gives a clue as to what to look for, so if these are printed out from the NI and Ute sites then there is at least a starting point. Also the husky x gsd scenario is recognisable to the people involved with the NI and Ute breeds so they will be easily picked out by just making the right phone calls to the right people.
Like you say, there maybe are people in it for a quick buck, but luckily I haven't met them yet.

Well I'm afraid I have to disagree!

If you breed properly I believe you'd stay in contact with the new owners, have them sign a contract and also ensure the pup has some form of permenant ID (MC or Tattoo). If this happens I think your scenario would be a lot less likely, if it didn't the dog would be badly bred IMO.

A breed standard, to me, is the blue print of the breed - the ideal animal. I could give the breed standard of the English Springer Spaniel, but I'm willing to bet that at least 80% of the dogs in rescue wouldn't fit the bill. The same would go with the NI/Utes with them being a relatively young breed.

I personally think it's far better to give a general appearance, than the ideal, when dealing with resuce societies. That way a dog has a far better chance of being identified.

A general difference is best really, for example we have had some sibes brought in to the rescue in the past that to be honest are less than ideal to the standard, were quite large brown eyed that to the untrained eye could have been mistaken for a mal, some are mal x sibe crosses some have been just sibes (according to the papers when the odd owner comes and claims the dog) so I was looking more for something that I could look at a dog and say that is definately a ........ because.......

Mo

well if you get one and send the piccie over to me, or maybe put it on here even, I am sure we will sort out what it is!
As to signing a contract etc. Yes lots of breeders do that, and lots of breeders are now chipping, and personally I would try and stay in touch with the owners and I know lots of the breeders do. However, some of the owners are, well, strange, about being kept in touch with. Sounds peculiar but it is true.
Ideal scenario would be owners and breeders stay in touch and then if there are any problems they can sort them quickly, but in the real world it doesn't happen.

I wish that was the case, I did all these things, wrote to them regularly and only ever received 2 replies, One of my pups was passed on to someone they met in the field never found out where he went and I had 2 back for rehoming, 1 twice poor chap, found the right home eventually!
Becky

In general to me it appears NI are a fair bit bigger - this is the most noticable to me. Longer coats seem rarer in NI than they do Utes though both have both types. Blue eyes more common in NI. Utes seem to have shorter muzzles in my opinion.

As someone mentioned age will make a big difference as with most breeds - mostly with build...and Takoda's coat for instance has changed several times over.

Yes, but my point is you tried! Nothing will work out 100% of the time, but at least if you try and do it properly then there's already a smaller chance of the dog ending up in rescue if you know what I mean?

well yes you can only try, which is why we are advising all our breeders now to chip their pups and then at least we will know if anything happens and they need rehoming. Another one of our breeders is thinking seriously of tatooing as well.
I already have a 'waiting list' myself for when I breed as I do want to make sure they get the right type of owner, i.e. one with the patience of a saint, the strength of ten men and either be good at diy or have an account with the local builder!