Are cockers named after the cocking bird? Discussions

Yep totally agree Jackbox, the animal has to have both the physical aspects and the mental aspects for the job.

*I'm laughing at the mental image of a crazy wee Shetland bombing it to the first fence at Aintree! Teehee!

Isn't that what the Shetland Grand National is for

But I never said that, I didnt say JUST breeding for working drive - I said breeding from the dog best at the job - so if getting tru small spaces is important for the job then naturally the smaller dog will be better at it

So no your shetland at the moment wouldnt be the best for the job of racing, but if you only bred from the shetlands who were the best at racing, and then of their offspring again only selected the best racers then over time the shape AND the drive of the horses would change into something that would race well

You dont have to select for the shape of the animal, you select for the best ability and the shape will follow

A quote from Darwin himself, which I think very much applies to dogs in the present day ;-)

“It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is the most adaptable to change.”

Charles Darwin

Very true, and a bit scary when you think about dog breeding with that in mind

It certainly scares me! Of course Darwin's Theory was based on natural selection. Since the dog was domesticated mere mortals appear to think they are as capable of such selection as the marvellous Mother Nature. I'm afraid this has been proven not to be the case as us mere mortals have cocked up so many breeds. Would nature have made so many irresponsible mistakes?..........I think not.

I am of course speaking about breeding in general.

Yep totally agree!!!

Ripsnorterthe2nd, where can I find more info on how this prestigious title is won? The only information I can find with regards to the working side of the title is that the dog has to score at least 65% at a field trial. What does that mean in actual terms? There are no percentages in UK and Irish field trials, so I really haven't got the foggiest what it means.

The only other reference I could find is of a dog retrieving a bird from cover in order to gain the title. If only it was that simple over here!!
So where do I find more info? Otherwise we might be comparing apples with pears. And what will earn you a 'Tres Bon' in France might get you a "Put your lead on, love, you're out' in this country.

You are the one who has studied all of this so you tell me, please, if you can be bothered, which is not always the case.

And after post #46 I posted what I really meant regarding the difference between breeding and training so I'm not sure why we're being made to revisit this point???

Look at the context, two can play at his game as it were. If that makes no sense then I'll elaborate, but I'd hope it was obvious given the posts.

I didn't change the context of the thread.

Well I heard a very experienced gundog person tell me what he told me and then suggeested when others had a problem with what he said to speak to him directly. Shocker, how dare I! ;-)

Point to the bit where I said me having a different opinion makes those with another opinion wrong - PLEASE show me....

Again point to ANY thread/post where I state that show dogs aren't inbred.

God do I have to point it out??? FT breeders inbreed just as much as show breeders in order to breed better FT winners, faster. You dislike show breeders because of this mentality, yet low and behold working breeders are doing the exact same thing to produce better FT winners faster only they don't bother to health test, at all. 20%+ COI and NO health testing, lovely! Cos didn't you know??? If a dog can do a days work it's genetically PERFECT and therefore healthy!

Blimey, you really don't read other peoples posts do you.....

But I thought you were an expert on ESS??? You were telling me all about the differences between show and working ESS so surely you would know what a full FrCh means????

And yet I can remember a recent Crufts thread where you threw praise on the ESS BOB for it's lack of exaggeration. Make your mind up! And remember, working breeders are all about diversity of the breed, you really need to make your mind up which it is you want???

Oh dear, epic fail methinks.

ROFLMAO that you honestly think the small, short legged working ESS was the original breed on a thread about how the Cocker was created by splitting the breed into the LARGER ESS and smaller Cocker......

Very interesting from someone who I consider the absolute expert in working ESS. And yes, you may take a bow!

Yeah cos natural selection is exactly the same as artificial human selection. No, wait.....

Canouan. Julia will be more than happy to answer your questions. That is after you've spoken with Mr. Major, right!

I find myself coming back to this quote mainly, I think, because the bit in bold sums up exactly what I've been trying to say all along about FT bred (and therefore trained) ESS. You've said in one paragraph what I've been trying to say in this whole thread!

Even the most carefully thought out breeding programme can throw up some duds. Anyone - work or show - has to admit this.

This does not mean that all dogs bred from FT lines are small, cowering little robots. As Spaniel04 has proved, not all small spaniels lack stamina. I can also testify that not all big, heavy dogs lack it either! I know an absolute tank of a dog that would cheerfully go all day on very tough ground.

I know nobody has actually overtly made these assumptions in the thread - but I think it's timely (on behalf of all of us ) that we're not making sweeping generalisations - whatever our personal views.

I have seen some very highly strung, panicky springers - but in the right hands they make good dogs for some people. A dog that is kept in a secure, kennel environment and becomes used to the immediate surroundings, to shoot vehicles and a few famliar faces is going to freak if introduced to busy roads, domestic noises and general 'pet' life whatever breed if it's at all on the reactive side. The really cowery ones aren't for me, I'm afraid, but I wouldn't knock them because of that. They aren't bred to be pets....which is why I absolutely object to people knocking out litters because it's 'nice' for the bitch or whatever other feeble excuse and fobbing them off with pet homes ill equipped to deal with them.

I do feel that working dogs should only be bred when a bitch is needed to keep the line and there are a good list of people who have specifically requested a puppy, having seen sire and dam work.

If she stands still long enough, I am going to get some shots of my springer and I'd be really interested to read comments comparing her to the Breed Standard - just out of interest. As I said before, I'm not going to take offence at anything because I didn't acquire her to show. She's specifially for beating all day on demanding ground - mostly steep, rushy valleys; a few clough woodlands and heather on the tops.

I watched the Paul French video of the Springer Championships a while back and every dog was different. They're certainly not all small - but they were all trained and under control. I agree that on a normal beating line, you can 'get away' with less control and a more rangey dog. I've seen some dogs that are just boinging around and put up birds by accident rathert than design! I can see that a trialling handler would not risk undoing all his / her hard work by risking letting their dog pick up bad habbits. Also, as a beater, if you are told to let your dog out further - or send him over here - over there - then stop...decide where the next drive is.....pile into the landrover...pile out again.....the dog will learn to pace itself, rather than work with incredible enthusiasm for a short time (or a longer time if nothing gets flushed!)

This doesn't mean the dogs that trial would by default be 'incapable' of a day's work in different circumstances. Yes, there are a few that one looks at and thinks 'nah!' and I've seen spaniels flake out part way through a grouse day....but that's not the 'fault' entirely of trial people. For all I know, they could have started the season unfit and on a poor diet. Nobody can expect a dog to do a full day suddenly without getting the fitness levels up.

Same goes for handlers! I can't belive it's June already and I need to get serioulsy fit too!

However, I'm only a raw beginner in all this - so I'm not going to be upset if someone comes along and pulls this post apart (as long as its done politely!!!)

Excellent post, Kanie. And I would love to see a photo of your dog.

Here is my 'queen-anne- legged glorified sausage dog'




Yes, she is small, her ears are short and she hasn't got long flowing feathers. But she is fit for purpose.

And here she is about 15 months old at her first trial. She is intense, driven and very focused, the expression on her face probably says it all but she is most definitely not nervy.

Some very interesting points made in this thread ... and I am not even interested in spaniels :-D

Made enjoyable reading.

Spaniel04 your springer is gorgeous - love the tongue hanging out!!

For what it's worth, my OH last night said he has never heard of anyone soley compete in field trials, they all work their dogs as well.

He also said the reason why he, and everyone else he knows who shoots, looks for the "all important" red in the pedigree is because it's proof the dog has what it takes to do the job, as it's been tested by an independent examiner, and not just some numpties often OTT own opinion of their own dog.

Here are my FTCH-bred cockers. They will never see a field trial in their lives, but are most certaintly fit for the purpose they were bought for ;-)





And here is their sire, who shock horror competes in both field trials, and does a good days work in the field!

Yes, that's why earlier on I said I think I get what you mean, in that it's the training for field trials that "ruins" the dog for work in the field, and therefore it's not the actual bloodlines you are referring to?

You then referenced "pure" triallers, but who are they? I would really like to know who soley breeds WCS for field trials and doesn't work them, as obviously people who work their dogs should really know whether a potential sire/dam has been tested in the field?

Again I would also be genuinely very interested to know who is breeding WCS without stamina and drive?

I'm not rubbishing your opinion/experience in anyway, I'm interested to know why such a difference where you are with regards to FT dogs compared to up here

The quote I gave, of Darwins, I think is very relevant in the world of artificial selection, I see others on the thread managed to step back and understand the point too

I know this thread is about spaniels (and nice piccies peeps of some VERY nice spaniels so far ) but just wanted to add that I have heard a few experienced working collie people who have said that sheepdog trials ARE changing the type of dog being bred and I do know there are quite a number of "Saturday dogs" - ie handlers with sheepdogs who only compete in sheepdog trials and train on five sheep, without ever doing any "real" farm work.

I don't see this as a good thing OR as a real problem tbh - as there are still many excellent working collies being bred for those with the work for them.

Spaniels are not my forte though, so I have no idea as to whether there are many peeps who only trial and don't work their dogs as such.

Surely the best dogs will do both. In my experience, if you do the WORK with the dog initially, then you can fine tune it for TRIALS - but if you have fine tuned it for trials first, then it is an exceptional (and hard) dog who can then be roughed up (as it were) for work.

Bear in mind, I am talking working sheepdogs though, not working spaniels

Yep that makes sense, totally agree with both points in that they can be applied to spaniels too - there is a dog to suit everyones needs. I don't personnally see the problem with ANY breed "evolving" to suit modern needs (hence the quote) obviously as long as the dog is healthy etc.

Also totally agree the best dogs are those who can both do a days work then pull out the stops at competition - which as far as i was aware is what haopens in the gundog world anyway

its just occurred to me too that i train my wcs in agility - I wonder how that is viewed as messing with their working ability when it comes to a shoot!! Hehe

okey dokey here is MY queen ann legged working girls


_MG_0499 by jalizcazan, on Flickr


_MG_0227 by jalizcazan, on Flickr