To Crop or not to crop. That is the question. General Chat

Spay and neuter are a tricky subject and one that many owners agonise over before making a decision.

At one time, they were routine here so no one really questioned them. Now, we have more information so we really do have to weigh up the pros and cons.

For many, just the argument of unwanted litters is enough. Rescue centres are full to bursting so for many unwanted litters, there is only one unfortunate outcome.

That wasn't a consideration for me as I know I can manage my dog enough to ensure that she would never be in that position. The biggie for me was pyo risk. I've seen the devastating conclusion of pyo and there really is no other way to eliminate the risk.

Had she been a male, I wouldn't have gone down the route of neutering because I don't now believe there are enough health benefits to warrant it just as I would never consider ear cropping or tail docking because they are unnecessary procedures with no or minimal health benefits.

There are tons of benefits to ear cropping. If you are opened minded and don't shut something you have no knowledge about. It's correcting a deformity. Spay and neutering by this logic is also a unnecessary and far more evasive surgery. Facts are facts. Unwanted litters don't be lazy and watch your dog as you would a child. The spay and neuter enthusiast completely dispel the theory that ear cropping is cruel or unnecessary. Just cuz you don't know something doesn't mean it's cruel, doesn't mean it's wrong, just means it's different from what you are used to and people freak out when someone talks about change.

I agree there. All my females received meds. I think it's better to have them. Do you really want to get home and the next night your dog is in pain and you don't have them? You could give routinely as a preventative to the possible pain too, which is what the vet recommends.

Ear cropping is non invasive, I'd imagine that usually the pain isn't much. I'm not stating it never causes pain. Having the pain meds would prevent discomfort/pain from cropping.

It's a good source of information. Quote away.
I'm not sure what he means by that? It isn't "as painful" as it would be if they were older? It doesn't mean they have no feeling of pain. Why to they scream when the tails are snipped?

I think this is all good points, not only against cropping, I can see for either side. Individual dogs and certain breeds are like people. If they have less pain sensitivity then it isn't actually causing them to feel pain. With Pit Bulls they clearly must have a high pain tolerance and are theorized to produce higher level of hormones associated with pain inhibition. So it'd make sense that my dogs were probably not in much pain from ear crop.
I also think you shouldn't be touching the ears of course. I could see how messing with any wound, even if it isn't causing pain prior would then cause pain. It is like when a person has a cut or abrasion that isn't causing pain but then bump into something.
I suppose you could simply ask for a few days pain meds thus preventing concerns over post opt pain.
I do agree that the vet could also contribute to pain or lack there of. If they do it wrong. Or simply if there are complications after. Which I don't think are common in short crops, so I have no experience and with proper surgery even less issue. I've never had one done this way (haven't had a dog cropped in almost 10yrs), but as I said before vet now uses lazer. They claim that Lazer surgery is more precise and less painful with less infection risk, not just for ear cropping but in general.

Myself, I had a mole on my back since birth, wasnt an issue. Then it started to bother me (be irritated) around middle school age. It removed under local anesthesia but then it caused me no pain.
When I had complications post delivery I wasn't in real pain. I had minor surgery and they had wanted to do a full blown hysterectomy but it didn't come to that as they sent me to another hospital with more experience Dr. However I was not on pain meds at initial hospital, they kept asking me are you sure you're not in pain? Um yeah I'd know if I were in pain! After surgery and at the other hospital they did give me an injection for pain. However they wanted to continue to do this and add oral pain killers too. It's like seriously I'm not in pain! Why were they wanting to dope me up. Maybe more money or do they really think I can't realize if I'm in pain.
When my daughter was 2yr old I took her to receive some vaccinations. The nurse insisted she would jump and cry. Made me hold her arms. I understand why, so I'm not saying the nurse was wrong by any means. However my daughter did neither(same thing again at 3yrs old). The same day she went to the lab to have blood drawn. The tech told me to hold her arm really tight to prevent her her jerking away because she isn't going to like it at all. She did nothing of the sort. She didn't even attempt to pull away, she didn't cry. The tech was surprised. I am not shocked myself, because I was the same way as a child. I did not find blood draw or vaccines painful, with the exception of I believe tetanus. That isn't because of the needle itself, but the fact it can burn and cause after pain.
If people have differing pain sensitivity, dogs will have different pain sensitivity. If you're unsure about your own dog I am sure requesting a few days worth of rimadyl will be granted.

I don't try to "down play it", I've honestly not observed behavior leading me to believe my dog was in pain (including hiding pain).
That is true about vets. A friend told me the new local vet at the time was "against" ear cropping since they didn't offer it. Upon inquiry the truth was they had not attended ear cropping seminar. Therefore, were not comfortable, nor qualified in doing the procedure at that time.
Really though even what human surgeons or vets learn it is still not the same as having real world experience. All Dr learn and become better as they do more surgeries. Ear cropping is a relatively easy one, especially if they are taking the class for it they must be learning something. I think that some vets do a poor job because they are careless about it. That's not an excuse for them, but they don't put the effort in that they should.
You can't compare puppy mills with vet doing it. That's a pointless addition to a good article.

This I agree with!

As you pointed out, while they don't show it, they do give off signs that they are hiding it. Some people don't know these signs or fail to pick up on them. Even I'm guilty of this when my dog had cancer. I assumed she was just slowing down from age (at almost 12yrs old). Until she got the sinus infection. It wasn't until I took her in for that, that I found out she had cancer. I feel bad that she must have been in pain all that time. After getting better she is literally like a young dog again. Running, jumping, playing, full speed & enthused.
Now take a cropped puppy who acts the same, not like a dog hiding pain. I'm not trying to down play. I also don't doubt some pups are in pain too, just not mine ime. Likewise after follicular tumor removed my dog ripped stitches out, she was on pain meds. However, the 2nd time she did this, she was not. She didn't show signs of pain/hiding pain. She was still wanting to run around even though kept on lead and jump up for hugs (further ripping & stressing inner thigh). After I put stitches back in flour the second time, she managed to rip most out yet again. I was concerned with healing and possible infection so took her to vet. The vet said it looks good, no infection, gave me some ointment to help heal, stated it'd just have to heal partially open (the remaining 2 stitches I'd put in were left in) but would take longer. All the time, after pain meds were gone she seemed fine.

The fact is that some dogs are working dogs. I do believe that most are cropped solely for looks, but we can't discount that not everyone keeps dogs as pets.

I appreciate all your input. I think from all this I conclude that, personally I don't feel cropping is cruelty. This is due to it being a very minor procedure that doesn't lend itself to pain, it might cause mild pain or discomfort which could be alleviated and prevented with simple oral pain killers.

My sentiments exactly! Having had lost one dog at 5 years of age to pyo I wasn't prepared to risk it again with Georgina. For me it was an agonising decision as she'd already had 5 operations on her eyes due to severe entropion.

Like the majority of male dogs in Hungary Gwylim is intact, and I'm quite certain my vet and his breeder would do their utmost to dissuade me from having him neutered.

As for cropping his ears and docking his tail, whatever my preferences might be, they're totally irrelevant as it's illegal here.

What are the tons of benefits? Are they in the link I think you'd posted? I can go back and read that.
If people wish to "correct a deformity" then they have a long way too go. In Doberman specifically they have the "deformity" of a short, sleek coat. Wild type would be a brushy, double coat. They also appear to be homozygous for tan point, another genetic mutation. As well as carrying mutations for liver and dilute. They have deep chests as well. Don't get me wrong, I like Dobies. I'm certainly not against cropping. However almost everything about domesticated dogs is a mutation or deformity.
I'd think dog people would appreciate that dogs are domesticated with the side effects of domestication otherwise own a wolf.

Trust me I know the dobe is extremely man made lol but every dog is but if I wish to set his ears to the correct state then I don't think I should deemed as cruel. I don't care if people want to keep floppy ears and tails I've been saying this all along but others need to be tolerant of the other choice as well. Door swings both ways. One can't argue for spaying and neutering and be against another surgery that is far less invasive. Yes the benefits and why cropping isn't bad is all in that article I posted. Each dog is bred for a purpose and my breed was bred as a protector. That's the whole reason the ears and tails are cropped and docked so they don't have a handles to grab and harm. They've been this way since the breeds creation.

Oh come on - the correcting a deformity argument is really scraping the bottom of the barrel as there is very little about the majority of dog breeds that is 'natural' when comparing to the ancient ancestor the wolf.

As you quoted my post, I would point out that the unwanted litter argument for neutering is a moot point in my case, it was pyo prevention that swayed me. However, I can understand the unwanted litter argument and if I thought for a second that it would apply to myself, then I would prefer the neutering option to the likely death of puppies.

Perhaps you would like to list the 'proven' health advantages to ear cropping and tail docking because unlike the elimination of pyo risk in neutered females, none of these health advantages you talk of seem to have been proven to any reliable degree.

I think if you were to be truthful, you would admit that main reason for cropping and docking is aesthetic - nothing more, nothing less

Yes looks are apart of it but so is health. How many times do I have to post this same link before people will read. http://www.abouttimecanecorso.com/CropDock.html
Proven with pics that cropping is healthy and humane.

http://www.petmd.com/dog/care/evr_dg_ear_cropping_is_it_right_for_your_dog

http://pets.webmd.com/dogs/features/ear-cropping-and-tail-docking

https://www.vetinfo.com/against-dog-ear-crop.html

Three sites that give vet opinions rather than the opinion of a breeder

I'm about to leave this site all together. Being accused by @Malka for having a hidden agenda just because I'm a new member and I'm pro cropping? Really? What a warm welcome. Everyone else seems to actually read the points made and have a respectful argument, which I can appreciate. But accusations are not cool, online forum or not. Were merely speaking our OPINION just as everyone else is. Please do some research just as we have. @MissBoo22 and I both have research to back our opinions, just as some of you do. But I can assure you, I chose to circumsize my sons after extensive research on the health benefits of it, not purely for looks.

My Doberman is uncropped... I chose not to because of her age when we got her. She was borderline too old to crop and though you can argue my reason was for looks because it was in case her ears didn't stand correctly, it's also for the benefit of cropped/erect ears over floppy- if we cropped and they didn't stand, it would have been a completely unnecessary surgery and floppy cropped ears would defeat the purpose of cropping in the first place.

Please, someone tell me what spiked collars has to do with absolutely anything at all?!?

I did actually go back and find it previously posted. I read it, but only just had the time to reply.

I do not see a ton of health benefits. They mention mites and ticks, but both of those are found in cropped dogs ears also. Another common place I've found ticks is the armpit. Cats (domestic cats still have naturally erect ears) are also treated for ear mites, despite their erect ears.

So the only real thing I see is ear infections, which has been mentioned over and over. I don't see any information on the incidence of rate of ear infections in crop vs not cropped though. I believe that usually chronic ear infections have an under lying cause. They are right bacteria thrive in moist, warm condition but a healthy dog regulates this. It is the same with demodex. Healthy dogs have mange mites but they don't get a demo dexter outbreak because their body manages just fine. My Cane Corso is 9yrs old, drop ears and hasn't had an ear infection. Knock on wood.

I don't think you are cruel and believe you have the right to your decision.

Ok and there are plenty of vets that's will agree with cropping. Vets aren't always the best to go with since they yes have medical experience but aren't taught this art and go by hear say as well. They also don't prescribe the best food it's full of fillers but since it's vet recommended it must be good right. Do your research and don't just take someone's word for something. You don't own or know any cropped dogs so you're opinions to me aren't valid. Site all you want I don't care I have witnessed first hand the cropping and my dogs perfect fine and happy.

I'm with you this site is unwelcoming and closed minded and clearly no one here will even consider the fact cropping isn't cruel. As I stated I don't have a problem with floppy ears that being said one shouldn't have a problem with cropped. Especially those who don't and have never own a cropped dog. You have no actual basis in this and are just going off of hear say with no actual knowledge.

On a medical procedure, I'm sorry, but I do trust a vet's opinion way above a breeder's.

I do research on a number of dog related issues. These days it's just one of my hobbies . Of course I don't own a cropped dog, it's illegal here, but you seem to be insinuating that to have a valid opinion, I would need to have my dog's ears cropped. Isn't that back to front? Research on any subject should be done prior to action not the other way around

Breeders at least reputable one are highly educated in their breed so yes I would certainly trust a reputable breeders choices and knowledge they know the breed. Some have been doing it long then a vet has been practicing so I don't know why a reputable breeder is an invalid source ?
I've owned both floppy and cropped, me personally I am far happier with cropped and not having to deal with chronic ear infection my golden had even with weekly cleaning and regular vet checks he still got them all the time.

A breeder will be biased by how they would like their pups to look.

There really is very little, if any validated evidence to say that a cropped dog is less likely to suffer ear infections so it really does come back to it being an aesthetic choice

Not really since they are around cropped litters. Don't you think if I did extensive research before choosing a Doberman? Before choosing the breeder ? And cropping ? The answer to all of that is yes. If I thought it would harm him I wouldn't have chose this but fact of the matter is it didn't. A vet is also biased depending on what they practice, where the practice, and how they were taught. It's common sense that a ear that can be aired out won't create the better environment as opposed to a closed moist environment. Old school vets won't see anything wrong with cropping, New school vets who are newer into the practice will. I have been told by to many vets not feed a raw diet and to go with kibble. I didn't listen and don't regret it my dog looks great, has white teeth, no gas, great muscle tone, no bad breath, I don't have to express is anal glands but vets know so much in the nutrition department right? No no they barely study it and get kick backs from the food companies for selling crap food. Sorry but a vet is not always right. Who cares if someone wants a crop just for looks ? Why is it anyone's concern ? If people would stop stinking their noses in other people business the world would be a better place. Why do you care if someone crops THEIR dog ! They arent imposing their views on you. I haven't said go crop your dog but it's for some messed up reason acceptable for you to tell me floppy ears are better and cropping needs to stop. Why ? Keep your floppy ears I don't care, but stop imposing your no crop views on those of us who want cropped dogs. No one should be able to make a decision on someone else's dog. Plain and simple. I don't tell you what's acceptable why can you tell me what's acceptable. How bout this don't like something discretely. I haven't said I don't like floppy ears just my preference for my breed is cropped, and there absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Thought id heard it all but this one takes the biscuit,If this argument was valid why are police, military dogs ect not all docked, I can assure you there is no way id try to grab a police dogs tail.
@ MissBoo22 Quote Yes but it's done for a working capable dog.) Don’t get your logic with this comment.
Rather than make unsustainable excuses I wish that those who favour ear cropping would just tell the truth that it’s because they like the look. ‘End Of’

QUOTE="MissBoo22, post: 199933, member: 39296"]Yes looks are apart of it but so is health. How many times do I have to post this same link before people will read. http://www.abouttimecanecorso.com/CropDock.html
Proven with pics that cropping is healthy and humane.[/QUOTE]

I have read the link but in all honesty it’s meaningless the information on it has been gleamed from other sources with NO Scientific backup.

@chrisb I'm sorry but in some instances I am going to trust the breeder over a vet. A breeder (a good one anyway) is knowledgeable in one specific breed where a vet has a vast knowledge on many. If there is a question or concern specific to my breed, I am going to ask my breeder. My breeder had both cropped and uncropped Doberman. She did not sway my opinion either way on whether or not to crop! Some breeders will sell puppies already cropped, but of all the breeders I looked at, you had the option of cropped or uncropped. If you wanted cropped, they took care of the procedure before the pup went home so it was done at an earlier age and the new parents didn't have to deal with the immediate aftercare. The breeder could also show you and spend time with you on how to post- more so than most vets have the time for. I would personally feel more comfortable with an expert on my breed than an expert in all animals. Sure I have the utmost trust and respect for my vet and I couldn't ask for a better one, but there have already been things come up where the office referred me to ask my breeder and confirm what the vets office thought. They are honest when they aren't positive of the answer and can admit that a breeder may have a more concrete, experienced answer as they deal with that BREED everyday and vets deal with all breeds everyday.