Albino Groenendael ? Photos

Discussion in 'Belgian Shepherd Dog (Groenendael)' started by bijou, Jan 16, 2012.

  1. bijou

    bijou New Member

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    yvonne

    Albino Groenendael ?

    Just got this photo from my friend -a French BSD breeder - it's a pup from her last Groenendael litter and she thinks he's an albino - I'm not so sure - a beautiful pup though !!


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  3. Chris

    Chris New Member

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    Chris
    Wow! He's stunning.

    Wouldn't an albino have the characteristic light blue eyes?
  4. sarah1983

    sarah1983 New Member

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    sarah
    He's really pretty but I wouldn't say he was an albino, not with all the black and grey on him.
  5. Sara

    Sara New Member

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    Not Albino. I dont think true Albinism exists in dogs. We've had ALOT of discussions on the Deaf Dog e-mail group I'm on, and there are several people well versed in genetics who say that Albinism does not exist in dogs. they are white factor (pit Bulls, boxers etc.) The only question that comes up is white Dobermans... some say they are, some say they aren't.

    She's absolutely stunning!
  6. smokeybear

    smokeybear New Member

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    smokeybear
    I just think he is a very pale red?

    A friend of mine has a gold and white BC and when a pup just looked cream with some slightly, very slightly light gold patches.

    As the dog has matured, the gold has deepened.

    Is gold a dilute red? No sure.

    Would this be classed as a Groan?

    It is the same issue with BSD where for example, the stripey ones from a Mali litter are called Dutch Herders and the others not?
  7. bugzy

    bugzy New Member

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    With those gorgeous Dark eyes, dark lips, and a lovely black nose..... I'd say he's deffinately NOT albino... he is however STUNNING

    Look at this picture of Ice, he was a white Dobermann (albino to some ) he is sadly at rainbow bridge now :(

    [​IMG]

    If you notice he had light blue eyes, pink pigment round his eyes, and a very squishy pink piggy nose :))
  8. bijou

    bijou New Member

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    yvonne
    yep - well certainly in Tervs it is

    He's registered as a Terv ( FCI rules)- it was a Groen x Groen mating but with Terv in the lines of both parents - I think he's simply a mismarked Terv but I've never seen one with such a lack of overlay or masking !!


    No - the Dutch Herder and Belgian Shepherd are two separate breeds - not varieties of the same dog ( as Groens, Laeks, Mals and Tervs are) you cannot get brindle Belgians -however the two breeds have been crossed by some Malinois breeders ( working line only ) but the pups would not be eligible to be registered as either Dutch or Belgian.
  9. smokeybear

    smokeybear New Member

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    Doh, I meant would he be classed as a Terv! :)
    Do you not think he will get darker when he is older or IS he older? :)
  10. tazer

    tazer

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    Tazer/Taz
    Gorgeous dog.
  11. bijou

    bijou New Member

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    yvonne
    He's 8 months in the photo - he could get darker but I've never seen one like this in all the years I've been in the breed so it'll be interesting to find out !!
  12. magpye

    magpye New Member

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    Taz
    He's absolutely beautiful! Is she keeping him?
  13. DoKhyi

    DoKhyi New Member

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    Very pretty boy. He looks like a rough collie cross rather than a BSD. :grin:

    He's definitely not an albino in any way or even a dilute unless his nose, eye rims and overlay of darker hair is blue or brown. He doesn't look like he's showing any traits of leucism like bugzy's white dobe.

    He's just a very pretty fawn colour, that's all. Here's an interesting link for you. It's a PDF about coat colour genetics in the breed and the DNA testing done.
    http://www.bsca.info/research/DNAtesting.pdf
  14. Vicki6344

    Vicki6344

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    Vicki
    So lovely..... :049:
  15. MerlinsMum

    MerlinsMum

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    Sue
    He is absolutely stunning!!

    As you say, no forms of Albinism or C-locus genes have been recorded in the dog.

    The so-called "albino" Dobermanns have been found NOT to be anything connected with albinism, Instead they are genetically similar with a gene founds in rabbits, rats, mice and cavies, called "P" for pink-eyed dilution. This combined with black gives a pale beige/cream (known as Champagne in mice & rats, Lutino in rabbits and Beige in cavies). But because of the different eye structure of dogs compared to rodents & rabbits, the eyes appear blue not pink (just as the eyes of a Siamese cat appear blue but the equivalent gene in other animals gives a pink or red eye).

    This Terv does look very washed out but the main feature is that he is lacking a mask. The gene that gives black masking in Belgians is E(m). It is a dominant gene meaning a dog only has to have one E(m) gene to have a mask.

    As he is bred from Groenendaels, there is no way of knowing if a Groeny is E(m) E(m) or E(m)E = having only one gene for black masking. IF by sheer chance you bred two Groenies together that each had only one E(m) gene, some of the litter will be born without masks. But of course if the entire dog is black, you wouldn't see it! But you would on a Terv.... ;-)

    With regard to the pale colour, another possibility is he is a Blue Tervueren (still without a mask). However the dark pigment he has on ears, tail etc. would be blue, not black and I would expect the eyes to be unusually light as well (as is the case with all blue dilute dogs).

    The lack of red in his coat may logically be another side-effect of coming from Groenendaels. As you would know, Bijou, you can't selectively breed for a nice deep red when your dogs are black! :lol:

    The fact that he has come from two Groenendael parents means both parents carry a gene for non-black. Groenies are normally KK [sometimes written as K(b) K(b)]. However some can be K(b)k(y), meaning they have one hidden gene for non-black. This is fairly uncommon but not rare, as Merlin's father [pedigree Groenendael] must have had the same genotype; as do Groens that have a Terv parent.
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2012
  16. angelmist

    angelmist New Member

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    Stunning dog!
  17. Loki's mum

    Loki's mum Member

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    Gill
    Just looks like a pale Terv to me, without a mask. He's a lovely colour. He wouldn't be a dilute though with the black pigment on his nose and lips though would he? My Estrela bitch is a pale fawn, which is unusual, but she's not a dilute colour, just pale.
  18. MerlinsMum

    MerlinsMum

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    Yes I totally agree - it's the lack of mask that makes him stand out. He is young yet so he may develop more black overlay as he gets older, but his mask will stay the same. I stand by my earlier explanation of the lack of mask being down to the absence of E(m).

    With regard to his pale colour, the light forms of Belgians (and some other breeds) have been suggested to be because of a gene which dilutes phaeomelanin (yellow) without affecting black pigment.

    Originally this was thought to be possibly a relative of albino, on the C-locus (which is the series relating to albinism) but recent research has ruled this out.

    It's now classed as the I for Intensity gene, possibly similar to the I for Inhibitor gene which gives a similar effect in cats (and which also was once thought to be on the C-Locus!)

    I have always thought this I gene was responsible for "grey" Tervuerens and Malinois, but was told by a breeder that the "Greys" are far paler than that. I still think the Greys have the I gene but perhaps other modifiers are responsible for the amount of yellow still in the coat.

    I am sure Bijou will correct me if I am wrong, but in Tervs and Malis (also Laekenois) in countries using the FCI breed standard, paler shades are actively discouraged, which may be why they are less common - but of course a Groen could happily carry the right genes to create the light body colour without anyone realising.... until one pops up. I'm not sure, but I think this pup is is overseas in an FCI country.

    Very interesting article regarding all forms on dilution by the world's most influential canine colour geneticist at present (mapping all the colours at a molecular level):
    http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dilutions.html#intense
  19. Loki's mum

    Loki's mum Member

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    Gill
    I do find colour genetics very interesting though sadly it goes over my head!

    I have seen some pale coloured Tervs in the show ring, but all had black masks.
  20. MerlinsMum

    MerlinsMum

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    Sadly he would not be of much use in a breeding programme due to his lack of mask. He will have to be registered as a Tervueren, but very doubtful that anyone would want him as a stud due to his pale colour and lack of mask. Crossing him back into Groenendael lines would be his only option but [aside from those who turn up randomly in litters like this chap] inter-variety crossings within Belgians are only done in special circumstances, and that also varies from country to country.

    Yes, we seem much more tolerant of the lighter coloured ones here in the UK. I was blown away the first time I saw a pale cream Terv, they really are gorgeous! I guess with our smaller gene pool here (and not bound by FCI which appears to discourage lighter dogs) we see no reason to discount a good dog for a slight colour variation.
  21. bijou

    bijou New Member

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    yes we are more accepting of the pale Tervs in this country but these tend to be are a light shade of fawn rather than true greys which are much rarer - here's my of old lady -Xena - who is a true grey Tervueren - note the correct amount of black overlay and her masking-
    [​IMG][/IMG]

    compare her to my boy- Max who is also sometimes described as grey when in reality he's a very pale fawn colour

    [​IMG]
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 17, 2012

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