GSP - Is there a law that allows gun dogs to be docked? Discussions

Lizzy23. Why not tape the tails? Would that help at all? Assuming that tail damage is a real issue, why not tape the tail, or shave it? Wouldn't that prevent injuries?

you actually need more feathers on a tail to prevent them injuring it,thats the problem most springers have thin whippy tails, on the spaniels the taping tends to come off in thick cover my friend had to have her working cockers tail amputated and so did another friend with a springer, neither had ever been worked, but ended up with badly damaged tails just on a normal walk.

The problem with tails is they never heal and end up getting infected, not pleasant for the dog at all.

On another note i do know someone who picks up on our shoot that does strap his labs tail

As I said that is ONE police force. ONE police force's practices do not reflect ALL police forces.

HTH

i think you'd be surprised how many spaniels out there have or do damage their tails on a regular basis, most is probably not reported, because actually apart from amputation which most vets only do in the most severe cases, theres not a lot you can do except keep it clean and wait for the scar tissue to form as Helen says and this takes a long time in the meantime the dog suffers

SHAVE a tail will only make a tail MORE likely to be injured in the undergrowth as it reduces the amount of bone cover it has, hence my previous post on the differences between SHW and LHW!

There is NO way of taping a dog's tail up and it KEEPING it taped up when in action, you can hardly maintain it on when in a CAGE on REST!

I DO understand that if you have owned a dog which regularly gets their tails entangled in in brambley undergrowth that you would want to do something to help prevent injuries. The ground around here is very brambley and my collies tails often get entangled. As they are not usually far from me, I can help them get free (I have often had to use scissors). I suppose if the dog is working away from you and they are all fired up they may pull themselves free and damage the skin.

Just as an aside: when my old dog was swimming in the river nearby he tried to get out on the "wrong" side. This side of the river was very deep, with no shelving with a very steep bank, covered in thick brambles and prickely undergrowth. Unfortunatly as he realised he could not climb out that side, he turned in the water (swimming) and his tail became entangled in the undergrowth. The harder he tried to get out the more entangled he became. Luckily I managed to find someone with a stout knife and a Boy Scout attitude and all ended well!

You have to remember it is not just the hair on the tail that is the issue but the fact that dogs use their tails in very different ways.

A collie or a GSD does not use its tail the same way as a CS or an ESS does so they are less likely to suffer damage even if they WERE used in the same environment as the spaniels as they do not wag their tails with the same frequency or strength........

the thing is this is an emotive subject, you can read all the statistics you like on the net, me i go on what i see on a regular basis, and based on that i will not have an undocked springer if i can help it, i've seen too many of them covered in blood and sore

I used the example of Strathclyde police as they are the biggest in Scotland and have the largest number of working dogs. The police in Scotland are NOT exempt from the docking regulations, therefore you will find that, like Strathclyde Police, no other force in Scotland docks their dogs tails.


I would like Smokeybear to let me know what police forces routinely dock ALL their working dogs (as he claimed in a previous post). As you claim to have experience of working for many forces, can you please provide evidence for your claim. This is only polite, as I have provided evidence for mine.

1 Docking is banned in Scotland, full stop. It is NOT banned in Wales, England or Ireland, the former two countries have strict criteria which need to be met.

2 I do not think I stated ANYWHERE that police forces routinely dock ALL their working dogs!

3 I have also never claimed that I have experience of working for many forces, perhaps it might be useful to re read my posts!

4 You are the one that wants the information, google is a good friend.

5 Politeness has nothing to do with it.

I cannot find the reference to you stating that you have trained with service dogs. My apologies if you did not state this.

Where is your evidence that police/C&E etc activly dock dogs working in restricted areas? what is so different about restricted areas in Scotland which means that they don't have to dock their dogs? Surely if this were an issue for Scottish service dogs, they would have petitioed for an exclusion. But they didn't.

SOME services SOMETIMES use dogs which they have obtained and are already docked. Obviously they cannot reattach a tail.

Can you please provide evidence to support your assertion?

Look for yourself! I do not have to provide evidence, (unless of course I am a policeman, a defendant, or a witness in a court of law)

west mids, have a breeding program and dock their dogs, or they certainly did the last time i was talking to them, as he told me how they'd struggled to find a vet to do it.

Most spaniels these days go in to the police from hand ins, we have spaniels with, west mids, the met, northumbria, south yorkshire, west yorkshire and the prison service, and most forces ring us up on a regular basis, to se if we have anything suitable

Yes West Mids have a sophisticated breeding programme in both spaniels and GSD.

Several other forces either breed their own or buy pups from regular suppliers as well as taking gift dogs. Those that have breeding programmes also generally have puppy walkers too.

Hello again

This ^^^^ is the crux of the arguement here!

Working gundogs would get their tails caught in the undergrowth constantly, causing injury after injury after injury...........so, we haver to ask, what's more of a welfare issue for the dog, docking at birth to prevent future (possible) injury, or, risk constant (possible) pain and infection, possibly amputation, later in life?

Have you ever watched a spaniel working? Their tails are mental!!!

Ive had three undocked litters of welsh since the ban came into force and out of 19 pups three have had to have a tail amputation due to injury. Its not just how they use the tail its the instinct to go in thick gorse/braken to "flush" out game. I'd much rather have the option of removing the tail at birth than putting an animal through the pain af an anaestetic in later life.

Smokeybear, I find your response unecessarily aggressive.

It is customary, when discussing and issue, to back up your assertions with evidence. I have provided that in the form of a link to an article about the BVA research and to Strathclyde Police dog branch.

You have made claims which you are apparently unable to back up.

Very poor show!

I can understand why you would not want to subject your dogs to injury which could be prevented. It just seems to me to be such a barbaric thing to do!

For example, it is recognised that cats with white ears are very suseptable to tumours (on their ears, obviously!). Why don't we just remove the tips and prevent the problem in the first place.

I find your posts unecessarily accusative.

I do not have to back up my "assertions" with evidence, if you want some info do the work yourself.

You have made erroneous claims which are wildly inaccurate, if you had done the correct research you would be taken more seriously.

You have made your views on docking quite clear. You think it is barbaric, some of us think it can be justified. Neither of those opinions will be altered on this thread.

Cats can be prevented from going out in the sun, they are, after all, not ACTUAL working cats!

If you want to have a thread discussing the pros and cons of docking, perhaps you ought to start another thread?

Very poor show to hijack another.

Yep and chinese hairless are prone to sun burn which is why sund block is applied.