Off Topic Chat
Discussion in 'Off Topic Chat' started by Chris B, Jan 1, 2024.
May 2024 be a good year for us all and our doggies of course x
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Happy New Year! May it be the better than all those before and worse than all those to come!
Happy New Year everyone.
Hoping for a peaceful world .....
Hi , Happy New Year! I am new to this forum and for the life of me cannot see where I can make a new post so I am doing the best I can and I will ask a question here. Hopefully someone will see it and get me a proper response. Last December I had contacted a breeder looking for a Belgian Malinois from an ad that stated Belgian Malinois puppy. Initially MAC seemed skittish but I was told that he would adjust within two weeks. When I originally called and asked about the Sire and Dam I was told they were both Belgian Malinois. Upon pickup I was given his folder which contained two sheets of paperwork, his immunizations and his wellness checkup from the vet, which was excellent health. Unbeknownst to me behind his wellness checkup was his folder CKC registration which just happened to be signed by the breeder but at no time on the pick was it discussed or shown where my signature would be required. I was under the impression that MAC was a pure bred and in all the euphoria I forgot to ask for the registration. On the third day home while we were getting used to one another I discovered a bump on his belly which turned out to be a congenital umbilical hernia. I called and the breeder said not to worry about it as the Veterinarian suggested he would grow into it. I then asked about the registration and the breeder thought it was in the folder. Because of it location behind the other paper I was not able to see it. MAC is a great dog but he is very reactive and because of his look people get scared very easily. I explained to the breeder when I initially called that I was looking for a dog that was sure of itself and would be a good candidate for scent training specifically MOLD as this is a business I would like to get back into. She felt MAC would be perfect. Fast forward to about 5 months later when I found out through Embark testing that MAC is 48% GSD, 45%BM and 8% Dutch. When I called the breeder to discuss it she maintains that regardless of the testing MAC is a Belgian Malinois... for any experts out there... is it accurate to call MAC a Belgian Malinois OR should he be called a Belgian Malinois X as his registration papers which I came to find months later behind the pocket of the folder. I am in the process of suing the breeder for consumer fraud based on the omission of the GSD and Dutch cross breeding. Even during our latest conversation she insists that even though the Dam waas a Belgian Shepherd cross MAC is a Belgian Malinois and I find this impossibly confusing.
Any helpful advice is appreciated
Hi Anthony, with the reference to CKC am I right to assume that you are in Canada?
I am in the UK and our national Kennel Club would certainly consider your dog to be a GSD/Malinois cross. However, as this is likely to become a legal matter, I would advise you to seek confirmation from
1. The Canadian Kennel Club - deals with pure bred pedigree registration and dog shows in general.
www.ckc.ca and save any correspondence.
2. The Belgian Shepherd Dog Club of Canada, (BSDCC)
www.bsdca.org An association of breeders and breed supporters who are the public face of the breed. They decide what should be the correct breed standard for the BSD.
One warning though, there is another breed club which promotes the Working Belgian Shepherd. This is the Canadian Working Belgian Shepherd Dog, (CWBSA).
Sometimes the breeders of working dogs may use different criteria for deciding what features are required in their bloodlines. Do check exactly which organisation your boy is registered with, but if it is the official Canadian Kennel Club, (CKC) - I would expect him to be bred from pure-bred stock.
Would be interested to know how you get on.
I agree with the above. I will also add:
Purebred is different than genetic makeup. Purebred is determined by parentage and pedigree by the (in your case) CKC not by genetics. If the registration states the puppy is Belgian Malinois, then for all legal intents Mac is a purebred. If the registration states the puppy is Belgian Malinois X, then for all legal intents Mac is a mixed breed.
The genetic makeup actually has no bearing on the purebred status UNLESS the breeder has falsified the puppy's pedigree in order to sell it as a papered purebred. In that case, the genetic testing can provide proof of the falsification.
Well yes Toed, but if the CKC works the way of our UK KC, (now officially The Royal Kennel Club), crossbred dogs would only be allowed on the Activity, (Working), register, not on the breed register. To be registered on the main breed register he must be pure bred.
Having said that, there are some breeds which derive from a mixture of breeds. Many years ago a journalist who showed dogs submitted a dna sample from her Champion Bearded Collie to a dna bank. I have forgotten the exact details, but the result came back as a collie cross. In those days dna breed testing was in its infancy, (1990's), and in those days they had nothing like the actual number of breeds on their record - I think over 300 breeds have been typed now.
The four varieties of BSD were, until fairly recently, classed as a single breed divided only by coat type - at least that is the case in the UK.
My point is simply that the club registration determines "purebred". If the dog is registered as a mix, then the dog IS a mix for purposes of the club. You cannot then register the puppies as "purebred" because the pedigree shows the parent as a mix. If the dog is registered as "purebred", then the puppies could be registered as mixed or purebred based on the other parent's registration.
So if Mac's dam is registered as a mix, then the puppies MUST be registered as mixes.
The actual dna doesn't factor in to the registration. This is because breeders are allowed to use outside stock under certain circumstances for the betterment of the breed - so it IS possible for a registered purebred to actually have other breed dna in their genetic makeup.
In the US, the four belgians have always been considered separate breeds. Back in the 70s, my parents bought my sibling a Belgian Groenendael - at the time, we called them Belgian sheepdogs.