Learning and training Discussions

Discussion in 'Pomeranian' started by Lifew/dogs, May 8, 2024.

  1. Lifew/dogs

    Lifew/dogs New Member

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    Learning and training

    My favorite Isaac Asimov quote is “Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.

    "https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Training_Dogs_the_Woodhouse_Way
    BTW Some people are afraid to learn and grow. No one gets out alive and it's not the destination it's the journey. Operant conditioning isn't for everyone and it's also getting quite old. Barbra Woodhouse first dog trainer never used conditioning on her pets.

    It began with a guy feeding his dog and he noticed salivation before eating then rang a bell before feeding and the dog unknowingly salivated without the food present. Does that sound like a good way to train a dog? Sounds mean to me.
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  3. Chris B

    Chris B Member

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    I believe you have Pavlov and Skinner confused :)
  4. Helidale

    Helidale Member

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    @Lifew/dogs Barbara Woodhouse was nowhere near being the first dog trainer.
    She may have been the first dog trainer to popularise dog training on the TV, but putting on a chain, shouting 'Walkies', and marching round in circles wouldn't pass as a training method these days.
    I would argue that the German Colonel Konrad Most was the most influential trainer from the 1950's - 1960. His rigid methods led directly to the Schutzhund movement, but were far too authoritarian for the pet-owning community. From my young days John Holmes was the stand out trainer of Working Trial and Obedience dogs. Who else could work a Pembroke Corgi to KC Working Trial Champion? Then came Charlie Wyant and his popular Heelaway paperback, which sold in thousands. I think the Blanche Saunders courses were popular in the US around this time - I own a sought after hardback copy of her Courses 1,2and 3.
    At my first Crufts - 1961 or 62, I was almost moved to tears watching Muriel Pearce work the multiple CC winning Ch. Megan of Monksmead to the ticket. Unforgettable, I can still see her, dressed in black trousers and a black and white waistcoat - a perfect match for her lovely Megan.
    Then along came Karen Prior and Don't Shoot the Dog! I could go on, but won't bore you any more. I love talking about dogs and the people who have shaped my ideas, but I do get carried away.
  5. Lifew/dogs

    Lifew/dogs New Member

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  6. Lifew/dogs

    Lifew/dogs New Member

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    She was a basic trainer easily understood and had people learning, not conditioning dogs.
    How many dogs have you trained? And how many OB titles earned? How many other means of training like schutzhund or protection training have you learned?
    Watch this OB training let me know how comparable your training is.

    Your dogs look at your every move while walking beside you? This is the most beautiful obedience training I've seen and however they do it isn't conditioning.
    The dogs LOVE IT.
  7. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    Considering that by your own profile and posts, you have only shown dogs for 1-3 years and have only ever watched schutzhund/protection training, I think your questioning others' experiences is unnecessary at best.

    You also seem to have a belief that positive based training is only operant conditioning and that only positive based training is operant conditioning. This belief shows that you do not really understand or are confused about this subject.

    Schutzhund training is very much operant conditioning. It is also still very much into the use of the negative reinforcement and positive punishment quadrants and most schutzhund/protection sport trainers (at least in North America) use abusive training techniques on their dogs.
  8. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    I can't comment about Shutzhund training methods. Working Trials is the nearest I have come that type of activity, and I have never done any protection training. The sport has been through so many changes of name and format over the past several years that I am now confused about who is competing and what it is that they are supposed to do!
  9. Lifew/dogs

    Lifew/dogs New Member

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    I would love to see how your ob dogs stand up to the sch dogs. That is like a dance. They first need to get attention for eye contact. That requires (at first) a LOT of food and no meals cuz it's all used for training. Spit the food in the dog's mouth. Yep.
    I was very disheartened to watch protection trained dogs and I won't go into all the whys on here. It feels too crabby-like here.
    Did anyone look at the links? Cuz I'm not as confused as others about Skinner/Pavlov both have the same titles on the links. What you really mean is you rip apart the actual operant conditioning to pick pieces to use and others to discard. So you're not conditioning properly EVERYONE says I USE "positive" training. You're tossing out the baby with the bath water discarding the 'negatives". So go about calling it clicker-positive training without knowledge. Sounds good to me. Everyone is doing it.
  10. Malka

    Malka Member

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    Chris B and Toedtoes like this.
    "It feels too crabby-like here" does it? Breedia was a nice, pleasant, welcoming, friendly, and helpful forum. And you have done nothing but try to destroy it since you turned up.
  11. Lifew/dogs

    Lifew/dogs New Member

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    Questioning one's knowledge about training on a training type of forum isn't ridiculous and since you don't want to admit to less than others you bash the question. I do not see operant conditioning in Schutzhund training but your rose colored glasses may.

    That is the happiest OB dog being trained. All schut. dogs are happy like that.
    And I forgot more than most people know about training and working dogs. I said I personally off leash trained 7 shepherds well enough to enter intermediate classes for the distractions. Maybe you skipped a few lines.
    How exactly would you approach a German shepherd adult not fed for at least a week tied to a tree with about 10 people standing around who tried to approach her with not good results? Would you attempt food? waiting............
    Last edited: May 10, 2024
  12. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    Malka and CaroleC like this.
    So which is it?

    Do you think Schutzhund traing is the bee's knees as you suggest in your prior post and this comment:
    Or do you find it "disheartening":
    You seem to have trouble taking a stand and holding it.

    No one has ripped apart anything. Again, you seem to have difficulty taking a stand and sticking to it. You badmouth operant training, yet you then suggest that it is good to use operant training as long as you use the negative reinforcement and negative punishment.

    YOU are the one picking and choosing. None of us have mentioned operant training. We simply recommend using positive-based methods for training rather than pain and/or punishment. YOU, on the other hand, repeatedly and ad nauseam condemn operant training while at the same time recommend using operant training methods in the negative reinforcement and positive punishment quandrants.

    No one has called it "clicker-positive training" except you. You obviously have not read any posts. Personally, I have NEVER clicker trained. Nor do I use treats as a reward. I focus on what the individual dog enjoys most. For the terrier mix, that's having fun. For the shepherd, that's praise and positive attention as, unfortunately, she was initially trained by someone who used negative methods to the point she was shut down emotionally and mentally - she finally has gained trust and no longer avoids human contact for fear of being punished.
  13. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    You seem to have a belief that you are somehow better, smarter, cleverer and more spectacular than everyone else. And you seem to think that googling makes you an expert at all things.

    I do not need to prove myself to you. I don't care what you think. What I do care about is your need to treat others like dirt and to give bad and potentially dangerous advice to folks coming to Breedia for help.
  14. Malka

    Malka Member

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    Toedtoes likes this.
    Firstly, this is NOT "a training type of forum". It is the DOG Forum of the site Breedia.

    Secondly, and this really is ridiculous, you have started this thread under the Breed Specific Forum for Pomeranians and are yet you are rabbiting on about Schutzhund and other training methods. Not training methods for a Pomeranian at all.

    Just in case you were not aware of the fact, there is a section on this Dog Forum called General Dog Chat https://www.forum.breedia.com/dogs/general-dog-chat/ which would have been a far better place for your oh so important thread.
  15. Lifew/dogs

    Lifew/dogs New Member

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    You had personal interaction to see what caused fear? I saw a shepherd submissively urinate when a camera came out. He likely was mistreated by a similar object like an E collar.

    I believe the Schutzhund trained dogs are extremely happy while doing their routines. Which is what training is.
    For one thing Schutzhund has 3 parts: OB, Tracking and Protection. I never saw tracking training they did it a great distance away from their property. The protection is a ROUTINE. They circle tents to find the helper then on COMMNAND attack. I trained my own dog, Kai, to track with scented material. She located a dead dog, a lost dog, a sheltie she just caught that one.

    Protection trained ONLY dogs are NOT Schutzhund dogs. All they do is attack/protect in home, office, car etc. The dogs make their own decisions. I don't like the result of dogs deciding who to attack and when WITH NO COMMAND.
    I believe someone protection trained their rotty then gave it to a shelter in at least ONE case without telling the shelter. I don't think Rotties do well in this type of training.
    IF you do not use positive reinforcement as well as NEGATIVE then yes you are picking it apart to use what you like. You are not using operant conditioning anyway you said above. The definition argues that you do BOTH.
    If not, then you only are treating your dog for whatever. You also BTW are treating a dog's mental attitude that you have no clue what it is. If the dog is thinking to bite the kid standing near you and you get a sit you may say 'good sit' but dogs mind isn't changed and you treated it. Since you NEVER said NO BITE or caught it ready to attack you taught it treats are good, go attack!

    If a child reaches to touch a hot burner do you lure it away with a treat or say NO!!!
    You never answered this.

    Woodhouse: there are no bad dogs. THE OWNERS are bad.



    FL rottie from shelter kills adopter youtube
    FL rottie from shelter kills adopter andson

    FL rottie from shelter kills adopter images
    FL rottie from shelter kills adopter dead
  16. Lifew/dogs

    Lifew/dogs New Member

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    including training. .....still waiting....
  17. Malka

    Malka Member

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    .....still waiting... for you to discuss training Pomeranians on the Pomeranian section on the Breed Specific Forum here. Or do Pomeranians do schultzhund?
    If a child reaches to touch a hot burner, the child will usually pull his or her hand away as soon as it reaches heat. You do NOT have to "lure it away". Do you have to "lure" your little Pomeranian away if it gets too close to something hot? Well? Do you?
  18. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    Here we go again with your google searches. Not ONE of those links has ANYTHING to do with the topic at hand. In addition NOT ONE of those google search results include a single link to a "rottie from a florida shelter kills adopter". So what is the point of providing these links? Do you think we are all going to slap our foreheads and say " OH, she googled and look at all the links, she MUST know what she is talking about...

    Googling does NOT make you an expert. You can google nanotechnology all you want, it doesn't make you an expert in nanotechnology.

    Again, you claim to have all this knowledge yet you have no experience in any of it. You have not been involved in schutzhund or protection sports training, but you watched a youtube video so you know it all. You gleam a little information off the internets and think that is enough to spout off.

    You seem to think that saying NO is the end all of training. Your example of a dog running into traffic and that you need to say no because otherwise all you can do is a recall is just nonsensical.

    First, in a recall, you teach a dog to come when called. So simply calling the dog before he reaches the street will have him turn around and come back to you. You also teach a dog to do a drop stay at a distance. This means that if the dog runs across the street, you can call him back to you and he WILL come. If calling him back to you means he has to run through traffic, you give him a drop stay command and he will stop where he is and wait for your next command. Both of those are far more effective at keeping a dog safe than screaming no at the top of your lungs while the dog runs into oncoming traffic.

    Second, if you are letting your dog loose where he can run into traffic then you ARE a crappy person period. There is NO excuse for putting a dog in such a dangerous situation. This is why leashes exist - to keep your dog safe in dangerous situations.

    If your dog refuses to come to you when called, then you are doing something wrong. Until you fix YOUR problem, you need to keep your dog on a leash. If your dog has a specific obsession that overrides her training, then you don't let the dog offleash around that obsession.

    As for schutzhund, yes, it does include more than just protection BUT protection is a PART of schutzhund. You can't declare that schutzhund training is great yet the inclusive protection training is bad. Protection IS part of the schutzhund training. And those that train for protection alone are using the same methods as are used in schutzhund.

    I have never claimed to use operant conditioning. I don't use it. I use positive based training - period. I certainly don't set my dog up for failure so I can punish her. I make things fun and positive. My dogs do what I want because they get something good out of it. I don't use fear and intimidation to force their behavior. I protect them so they do not need to protect themselves. They trust me 100%. They do not ignore me or disregard me. If I call them, they come to me because they know I won't punish them or stop their fun. If my dog is outside playing and I call him inside, he comes because he knows that his fun isn't ended - he's just going to do another fun thing inside. If my shepherd is stressed, I remove the stressor (or remove her from the stressor). I don't force her into a stressful situation just to teach her a lesson. Because of that, she is able to better handle stressful situations because she knows I will step up and do my job.

    In your example with a dog "thinking about biting a child", I would never put my dog in a position where she felt the need toconsider biting a child, let alone actually bite a child. I pay attention to my dogs. If my dog showed ANY sign of distress around a child, I would remove my dog from the situation. I wouldn't punish my dog for being distressed and I certainly wouldn't allow my dog to reach a point of distress where she thought biting was the answer.

    I am not treating my dog for anything. Your continuing to argue that I do is moot. And I certainly do not treat my dog's mental attitude that I know nothing about. Again, I pay attention to my dogs. I read their body language. I learn what triggers they have. I respond quickly. I know when my dogs are fearful, angry, frustrated, etc and I know the differences between those mental states. I know when my boy is frustrated and I help him overcome that frustration. I know when my shepherd is fearful and I get her out of that fearful situation. I have their backs. And I certainly don't put them in a dangerous situation without proper training and protections.

    I use redirection and reward. If my dog is exhibiting an unwanted behavior, I redirect the dog to a desirable behavior and reward them when they redirect. If the dog doesn't redirect, the dog does not get rewarded. There is no need to punish the dog because the dog quickly learns that doing the desired behavior has a better outcome. The dog is never rewarded for an unwanted behavior because the reward only comes after the redirection. I don't ply my dog with treats while facing a stressor. I minimize the effect of the stressor to the point that my dog can ignore it - by maintaining a distance or limiting the time of contact. I let the dog develop trust and never push them to the point of a blow up. My dogs don't bite because I NEVER put them in a position where they feel a need to bite. And I certainly don't force them into shutting down emotionally or mentally because I need to prove my superiority.
  19. who owns who

    who owns who Member

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    TLDR
  20. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    Sorry. ;) I just want my responses to be complete for anyone coming here looking for advice and reading through these threads. Heaven forbid someone think the google queen's comments are accurate because they weren't addressed fully.
  21. Lifew/dogs

    Lifew/dogs New Member

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    that's what the search does. lol
    So this isn't the place to do more than talk about specific breeds or breeding? Yeah that's so popular. I can't keep up.

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