Northern Inuit AI litters Discussions

Thats what I think Ali - if the timing isn't right then you won't get a mating and it differs greatly from bitch to bitch and even season to season.

IMO this dog is proven and should be listed as a proven stud.

Why was this done as AI???

Was the cost of fuel too much??

Was the dog abroad??

Was the dog deceased?? (I assume not as it mated her afterwards)

Why wasn't the normal mating tried first!

Well you've just awnsered questions 2, 3 & 4 yourself. I believe Sansorella awnsered question 1 & 5 on page one.

I do not believe that this thread was created for the purpose of debating why AI was used and whether it was correct to do so or not all the OP is asking is whether a dog who has sired a litter by AI is classed as proven or not. Please lets not turn this into yet another bitchy off topic debate.

I was not being bitchy or off topic..Its just usually AI is used because the dog is either overseas or dead!

So I assume this isn't the case and that the breeder just couldn't be bothered travelling?? Nice!!

Depending on the dates of the mating/AI.

the date the pups were born may give some indication as to which mating sired the litter,

If there was a fair gap between the AI being done then the bitch being covered that is..
If the time between was short, who knows, poss both methods sired pups,

either way the dog is fertile, he mated the bitch after the AI, so long as he tied the bitch, I see no problem with him being advertised as proven.

i know its a NI and un recognised breed, but dont the kc not allow registration of pups conceived by AI (with kc reg breeds obviously)unless the sire is abroad or dead?

I was not trying to suggest that you personally were being bitchy hun but we all know when NI threads tend to go off topic thats how they usually end up turning out, it was not ment as a direct comment/insult to yourself .

I do however see your post as off topic as the thread is about whether in this instance the stud would be considered proven or not, not about why this method was used or whether the method was appropriate (which is what you are going into) therefore IMO is off topic.

If it was just a case of not being bothered travelling then what about the incidence of the natural mating? If that was a correct assumption then surely the mating would not have then taken place.

You want to know the reason AI was used, then I will suggest as before that you read Sansorella's post on page one, she has already awnsered your question of why.

Dawn, much of what you say appears ridiculous to me but you still say it and I still maintain that the freedom of thought can be a great thing!

My thoughts on the KC have nothing to do with it, not that you know what my thoughts on the KC are! I was simply answering a question, the last time I checked I was a member of this forum and free to answer threads, as I see fit within the posting guideliness, I have not breeched these guideliness.

You just demonstrated your ignorance on breeding dogs as a whole, having now read your reply on the NI forum, it confirms it Nes, sorry. You should of done a bit of research before telling people that a dog refuses to tie!! Or perhaps the more "experienced" breeders should of explained it to you.

Oh and by the way, ridiculous or not, its true, a bit of research will confirm it for you.

Dawn, I am not a breeder. If a dog is not interested in a bitch and refuses to go near her, then I think it is fair to call it a refusal to tie! Yes, I do know what it means when a dog ties a bitch. Perhaps I should've said refuses to mate, period! I simply remember that late one night when I should've been in bed, (due to a difficult day at work), I felt for kate and answered that thread, what did I put....simply how I felt, if I knew that you would go back to scrutinise what I put and attempt to belittle/grade me for/on it, I would've posted when I more awake!.

A difference between us Dawn is this, I am not posting this to antagnonise you, you on the other hand appear to want to do just that when it comes to me,attempting to belittle what I have said elsewhere. It is neither here nor there to me whether the said Stud is proven or unproven, or how he is advertised. I can understand why the owner feels he should be proven and I can understand why the relevant club say he is 'unproven'. I can see both side. You on the other hand (perhaps due to you being biased against one side) cannot, or will not!

Biased? Did you forget he was an NI? I am posting the TRUTH, something that experienced breeders SHOULD know! The dog DID mate the bitch and there is NO way of knowing whether the AI or natural mating produced the pups is there? Therefore, because the dog DID mate the bitch AND there were pups produced the dog is proven, simple as!!

Im not posting to annoy you either Nes, it just beggars belief the stuff that folk come out with (didnt even see the NI thread till this one was posted on here) and its not corrected on a breed secific forum by supposedly experienced breeders, although I will say that there are only a couple experienced breeders, the rest are novices.

Added.

No, not fair at all and completely incorrect.

The relevent club consider him unproven because he has never naturally mated a bitch: "how would you if you had a bitch travelled 200 miles to use this dog,[as youve seen hes a proven dog] only to find he wont mate your bitch,and then to find out that even though hes sired a litter it was done by ai and he hadn’t infact even mated a bitch,youd be pretty peed off with us for advertising him as proven". But as we have already clarified this statement is untrue so therefore renders their reason non applicable.

This dog has mated naturally with both bitch's he has been put too, so there is nothing to suggest he would not mate the next one that came along either, as is being suggested.

Well, I was not there and I have posted my thoughts on it. We are each entitled to our opinion, in this free country that we live in.

I am not arguing with you, however, from what I have read the dog refused to mate the bitch in the first instance, AI was used at some point, then at a later time the dog mated the bitch. So I do not feel a huge misdemeaner has accurred if I say the dog refused to tie in the first instance! He refused to mate which also means he refused to tie, yes the terminology was somewhat incorrect in the first instance but I have explained this already, and you know very well what I meant and appear to simply want to 'nit pick' , I am sure you have better things to do with your time, I know I certainly have!!!!!!

Oh and reference inexperienced breeders, yes I am sure there are many about, in all breeds not excluding the NID.

Thank you for clarifying that Kate xxxxx

For the last time its NOT the male that initiates a tie, its the BITCH!!!! He did not refuse to tie, even more so, thousands of puppies are concieved and born WITHOUT a tie!! Who told you they must tie? You seem to be connecting this as a basis for your argument.

your right many dogs will slip mate, but im not sure I would travel a long distance for a dog that did not tie,

Unless it had to be that stud dog or no dog sorta thing, slip matings can be a bit hit or miss...

I don't see what the big deal is here, proven - unproven if people want to use the dog thay can ask question find out all the info and decide if to use him or not. There are other dogs on the page who are also down as unproven . . .

Its a fair point about the AI, yes he is fertile BUT what if the sperm count didn't have the mobility to conceive naturally? (not that i am saying this is the case and i am sure he will soon father a live litter Au nautrual!) AI does a lot of the work for the sperm does it not?

I think its fair to say that rules are rules and its in the NIS rules that AI makes a dog unproven.

Yes, it does (whatever method of AI you use).

What I would say is please be careful about using AI so indiscriminantly, if this becomes the norm then you may well find that the dogs then have trouble conceiving naturally (I am talking many years down the line). I know of a lovely bitch who was mated a few times yet it never resulted in a litter - their owners could have had AI done however this would not have been to the benefit of the breed as it could (would) then introduce dogs to the gene pool who are unable to conceive naturally. This obviously could have a long term effect on the breed, so the owner did the responsible thing and had them spayed instead.

As to whether the dog in question is proven or not, I think it would be a fair compromise to say that he is fertile and leave it at that. A proven stud (IMO) is one that has sired live offspring, however to avoid problems it might be worth simply stating that he is fertile, then anyone who wants to know the reason for the terminology can approach the owner and ask. If he then goes on to sire a live litter naturally, this will all be a moot point anyway

great post, AI should be used with caution,

Shona, I understand what you are saying, but its not the dog that initiates a tie, its the bitches muscles that contract to hold the dog. It was probably just that the bitch wasnt ready, owners fault for not swabbing and not the bitch and getting it right (sorry Angelmist ) To be honest it wouldnt make any difference to me if a dog hadnt had a tie on his previous mating at all, given the fact most bicthes are mated at least twice anyway, I wouldnt be concerned. Experienced breeders will help a dog be in the correct position when he mates a bitch, usually this is what ensures a tie, its when dogs are left to get on with it themselves that slip matings occur, not always of course and I do appreciate your point.

I also agree with regard to the use of AI.