Presa mauls pensioner to death - do we need better controls on who can own one? Controversial

Discussion in 'Presa Canario' started by Azz, Jun 3, 2014.

  1. 6JRT's

    6JRT's Member

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    I was there in February & sorry to say they still selling animals, there was a sign up in the animal kingdom says we are still open until all animals have been found homes.
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  3. Malka

    Malka Member

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    Sorry Tina. I have just made an overseas telephone call to Harrods and have been assured that they do not sell any live animals and have not done so since the end of January.
  4. 6JRT's

    6JRT's Member

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    I will ring my niece tonight who use to work in the animal kingdom at Harrods & ask her when in February I visited her & when did the last animal get rehome.
  5. Malka

    Malka Member

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    Tina, just before my last post, I telephoned Harrods from here in Israel. An overseas telephone call on my bill, that I thought was worth it to be sure that I knew the current Harrods ruling and policy on the sale of live animals.

    And I was informed by someone who works for Harrods now, that they do not sell any live animals and have not done so since the end of January.

    Perhaps you made a mistake in the month, or even the year, that you were there?

    Because Harrods were not selling animals in February 2014.
  6. 6JRT's

    6JRT's Member

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    Hi Malka I phoned my niece as she use to work in animal kingdom, she has said Harrods had stopped accepting animals in January & was still selling off / finding new homes up to 15th February 2014,
    My niece did say they were supposed to close at the end of January but there were too many animals/reptiles that needed rehoming so had until 15th February to sell/find homes for them all.
    I visited her at work on the 3rd February & stood outside the animal kingdom entrance, waiting for her to go on her dinner break. reading the notice that was put up, saying they are still open until all animals have been found homes.
  7. CuffGroup

    CuffGroup New Member

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    Hi All, I have only just noticed that this article was posted and saw that my name was attached to this. I guess only because Iam top of google search for the breed. I am very passionate about the breed and I have one litter a year maybe only 1 every 2 years. Only the dogs that complement eachother and have full health checks and passes, which include temperment tests. The dogs must be stable, this is also tested. Unfortunately like any animial this does not guarantee the dog being like their parents. Some can become very nervous because of their suspicious nature but with good socialisation can be brought back round. All of my dogs goto working homes or to people that I know. To be honest alot go abroad to those who are in for the right reasons. I also price the dogs considerably higher, one because I have the original breed and like some say not cross bred dogs, the other because it keeps the undesirables away. All of the people who have bought from me have had to visit and go through checks and those that are abroad I personally deliver. On one occasion I took a flight to Finland and brought the dog back! I also ensure that any problems the dogs must come back to me and not to be sold to someone else.

    I would consider myself a responsible breeder and unfortunately the owners can never always be fully trustworthy after sale. When I have a litter also I have a litter always thinking that i must prepare to keep all pups, there is no sale for a quick buck. I still own a very shy female from 3 years ago and a more defensive dog from a year ago. Only when the right owner comes along will they go out. I have over 20 emails a week asking for pups! I could puppy mill and make a fortune but I am not in this for the money but to produce good healthy, stable working dogs for working owners.

    This insident is very sad and I truely believe this country should operate a licence for all dog owners. Also rules need to be strict on dogs out in public in my opinion like our cross border neighbours as every dog has the ability to turn on a human.

    If I am honest there are only a few owners of true presa canarios in this country the others are mixed like alot of breeds. The other important thing to remember is that the majorero influence is a very defensive dog, in my opinion this makes them a true presa canario if it has this in the blood. The result is a defensive dog not a prey driven dog. This makes them very territorial and very rarely wish to venture out of their territory. This was introduced into the breed to guard cattle wouldnt be much use if they had lots of prey otherwise they would kill what they guard. The only time my dogs would ever bite a person is if you put lots of pressure on the dog even then for a dog to do a live bite is a hard task for this breed because of the suspicious nature and huge defence. Which is another reason I would believe this was not even a true Presa Canario. Lots of people today call it a name due to its poularity but in most cases it is not. A true presa canario must be stable where there is not a threat. One of the tests we do is a group of 10 - 20 strangers must circle the dog with owner and close in so every one crowds the dog, very hard for an out of control dog to deal with this much pressure. Furthermore I advise all new owners to just socialise their pups for the first year as this is critical for stability.
  8. Azz

    Azz Adminstrator

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    Welcome to the site Jon.

    These are some of the questions I'd ask a breeder...
    • What health tests do you do?
    • What's the minimum age you start breeding your dogs?
    • Do you in/line breed? Or prefer greater genetic diversity?
    • What type of temperament and traits do you breed for?
    • And perhaps equally important, what type of traits do you find undesirable and are trying to breed out?

    Just out of interest, how big do your male Presas get? I don't like the trend where breeders keep breeding for size. A Presa should be fit and agile imo.

    I hope you do not import Presas with cropped ears - people who do do the breed no favours.

    I look forward to seeing photos of your dogs - I love Presas :D
  9. CuffGroup

    CuffGroup New Member

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    Thank you Azz,

    I don't think you would go far wrong asking these questions, if I am honest I ask these questions pretty much to myself every time I breed. The presa is such a young breed or should I say varied breed, with so many ideas what the breed should be and the influence in the breed there are all sorts of types. When I buy a dog I do try to find out everything I can about the breeders lines, parents grandparents and offspring etc Sometimes I have taken a translator with me as in the North of Tenerife they don't all speak english.

    It depends on the lines, those with more Spanish Mastiff or Neo influence are obviously bigger, and then you have the terror type (curto) line that is a lot smaller. I must say those with high Majorero tend to be more athletic and more cat like. I own one that is about 70 - 80 % Majorero and its so fast its scary.
    I buy mine as adults so the majority are already cropped but I am not fussed either way and do like them also with ears.

    Jon
  10. Azz

    Azz Adminstrator

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    Thanks for the reply Jon.

    I agree there is large variety in the breed, and unfortunately, many problems because of it. Way too much in-breeding and line breeding for my liking - but I guess that is one of the problems inherent in establishing a new breed.

    Could I put the same questions to you please? I'd be interested to know you're approach to breeding.
    • What health tests do you do?
    • What's the minimum age you start breeding your dogs?
    • Do you in/line breed? Or prefer greater genetic diversity?
    • What type of temperament and traits do you breed for?
    • And perhaps equally important, what type of traits do you find undesirable and are trying to breed out?
    I'd also love to see some photos of your dogs - please upload some pics :)
  11. CuffGroup

    CuffGroup New Member

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    Yes unfortunately there are dogs slapped together with very little planning or thought and no end goal in mind, usually just because its available. Like I said before there are many opinions of what a presa canario is. In the USA they tend to line breed a lot, more to lock in genetics for show. In the islands they tend to breed quite close and then introduce a different breed or line altogether after 5 generations or they will totally recreate the breed by breeding different breeds of dogs to produce what some would class as a true presa canario. some don't believe in breeding presa to presa for too long as the dogs become less vigorous! So you can see why there are many variations to the breed. Some also say without the Majorero influence the breed is nothing more than a Bandog. There are a few breeders in tenerife I like that breed dogs that look like the old time photos of the breed and they are the ones that believe in correct proportions and certain dogs in the breed, not deviating away from that.

    Yes I start off screening the dog for Leishmania even before I think of bringing back to UK. I have always gone to Tenerife or USA to visit and buy. Dysplacia test, Heart test before I put two dogs together to check for heart defects, this must be done every time before you breed just doing once means its healthy at that time, problems can occur later. And finally eye test. Line breed, yes and no, totally depends I have a dog that is line bred and was done right but I out cross him to fix what I don't like but is matched up with a dog that fixes his bad traits but complements her bad traits! so what you get are some undesirable traits in the pups and the plan to produce one or two with a combination of the two (good traits) minus some or all (which never happens) bad traits. Bad traits just means I wouldn't breed but could just be they are not meeting my goal expectations, maybe too defensive or too prey driven. However to someone else this would be their pick of the litter. I always plan to keep those that are not wanted until the right person comes along.

    Breeding traits / temp can vary, as I believe the true breed should be more defensive but thats my opinion the breed is more defensive as a whole and suspicious but intelligent. Many people now want prey in abundance and are breeding for that. A very prey driven dog I also believe is not good in the house and the standard states they are a family guardian. I have a prey driven male and let me tell you its not for the house unless you don't have respect for your house!

    Traits I don't like are suspicion being too high usually from the Majorero cross more than 25% .

    This is my opinion only and from my experiences and what I have seen from my travels and talking to the locals. I believe they are very loving in the home and a great guardian that DO not chase and attack people without provoke but I guess any breed if not raised or put together right can be an issue.

    I will put some photos up tomorrow

    Thanks

    Jon
  12. Azz

    Azz Adminstrator

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    Thanks for answering my questions and the other info Jon.

    I am not keen on drivey Presa's because for such a large and powerful dog it could be a recipe for disaster imo.

    Rocky wasn't very drivey at all, but was territorial of his house yet very quickly switched off once he knew that the person was an invited guest (then he couldn't get enough of them!).

    If I was to get another Presa, I think I would prefer a smaller one too. What's the weight range of dogs you have bred?

    I look forward to seeing the photos!
  13. TeenageCanineLover

    TeenageCanineLover New Member

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    I like the presa canario breed and feel that maybe certain people should not own them. Don't get me wrong I don't think ownership should be restricted altogether but there should be a vigorous "interrogation"/questioning by breeders before they sell anyone a dog/pup of that breed to anyone. It only makes sense!!
  14. Malka

    Malka Member

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    [my bold]

    Unfortunately Emma it will never happen that all breeders "interrogate/question" prospective buyers of any breed.

    You know it makes sense.

    I know it makes sense.

    I think all of us on Breedia know that it makes sense.

    But for all too many breeders sense goes out of the window when they see £ or $ or € waved in front of their face.

    And just as unfortunately, there are too many people who want that particular breed, whichever breed it is, who will lie through their teeth if necessary to get the puppy/dog that they want.

    I used to breed Griffons many years ago and I was caught out twice. The first was by a young couple with an eight-year-old daughter who ticked all the boxes. They travelled quite a distance to see the puppy and for me to see them - and this was after a number of telephone calls. And when I was satisfied and the puppy had had his shots, they came, paid, and took the puppy home.

    About a year later I had to travel from my then home just outside NW London to collect Mother from Gatwick airport early one morning, and this family, who had kept in touch with me since they took the puppy home, lived near Gatwick so suggested that I drive down the day before, spend the evening and night with them so I only had a short drive to the airport in the morning.

    Which I did, and to my horror discovered that far from my little Griffon puppy being the first dog they had ever owned, they had a humungous Doberman who scared the living daylights out of me.

    No way would I have let them have a tiny Griffon puppy had I known they had this Dobe, but I believed them when they said that he would be the first dog they had ever had.

    The second was a bitch puppy sold as a pet without papers as she was not show quality and not, in my opinion, suitable for breeding. The couple bought her, as a pet, accepting my conditions.

    About a year later I received a solicitor's letter stating that I had sold a puppy under false presences as the owners wanted to breed her but the owner of the stud refused as not only did she not have papers [she was registered with the UK KC but I had kept her papers] but in their opinion she was not suitable for breeding.

    Sometimes, as a breeder, you do everything 100% by the book and you still cannot win.
  15. TeenageCanineLover

    TeenageCanineLover New Member

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    Sometimes, as a breeder, you do everything 100% by the book and you still cannot win.[/QUOTE]

    The Sad truth xxx

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