Reducing Inbreeding In NI dogs Discussions

option 8

oops forgot about option 8, so that would leave 1,2 and 8

will try and edit the first post to include option 8 and again try to add a poll

I was told by they lady who runs the BIDC that they are selectively crossing CWD's with the BI.

I think that's why she started calling them British Inuits, even though they used to be NIs. She does seem to have the right attitude e.g. testing, using only continually improving hip scores etc.

Saying this I doubt very much that she would entertain the idea of co-operating with the NIS, she certainly wasn't very complementary about them.

Yes I know ref the crossing that is why they changed the name to identify the BID dogs which are becoming a different breed due to the CWD influence. Many people are hip scoring their breeding dogs regardless of which club they are from and using dogs with low scores to breed from.

people are now hip scoring and using dogs with low scores that is a good thing, but IMO HD isn't the only problem in the breed

I forgot to say that I included BID and other independent breeders in option 7 as they have included other breeds Czech, Sarloos in their lines and so have already reduced the inbreeding. If it was just a case of NIS getting together and working with Tida then this wouldn't lower the COI as they would just be back to where they were 2 years ago when they split.

I have always been open with my views that NIS and Tida should work together. But IMO this wouldn't reduce the inbreeding COI.

My opinion:

Firstly, we do not know any extent of inbreeding, within this breed. Secondly do we have proof to back up any issues that supposed inbreeding has caused (facts, figures)? Thirdly, I and many others I am sure, would like the breed to continue to be NIDs, if I wanted a wolf dog (if they did not require a licence etc, as I do happen to think they are nice dogs) I would get a wolf dog from a reputable breeder, not a wolf dog cross.

Firstly, we do not know the true extent of inbreeding due to no proper records kept, but father /daughter matings repeated 3 times in a row with no outcrossing is too much for me.

Secondly, no one can prove that any problems are due to inbreeding, but Dr Jeff Sampson is of the opinion that continued inbreeding is not good for the health of a breed, so I am taking his word for it, he seems to know what he is talking about.

Thirdly, I too love the wolfy looking breeds, Saarloos and Czech but believed the info that was posted on NI websites saying that they needed a licence, I have since found out that this is not the case at all.

Firstly, I agree we do not know factually the extent of inbreeding in this breed.

Secondly levels of inbreeding go on in all dog breeds and J Sampson himself said this and did not take a negative view ref inbreeding, he looked at the positives, providing healthy dogs were used of course.

Thirdly, SC herself used to say a licence is required, she was (or claimed to be mortified at the TIDA Cambridge show as a BID was brought to it, she said we need special insurance for it to be there etc etc and if you don't believe me ask Becky) . On another note ref the licence the founder of the BIDC herself said that the Sarloos and the Czechoslovakian Wolf Dog may require a licence dependant on which council one is under, so why would it be different for a wolf dog crossed with any other breed
There are also the Saarloos wolfhund and the Czechoslovakian wolf dog (CWD,Czech), both of which are in the UK.

'Some Councils may require a licence for keeping CWD and Saarloos wolfdogs and some Councils will give written permission to keep them without a licence.Both breeds are established and registered in Europe.'
http://www.inuits.co.uk/

hi Nes

I agree with you that no one knows the exact extent of inbreeding, but just because it may have been done excessivley in some KC breeds doesn't make it right. We all saw the 'pedigree dogs exposed' programme.

I spoke to JS privately at the talk, so some of the things he said to me were not in his lecture. But he definitley talked about inbreeding depression and outcrossing in his talk.

Regarding the wolfdog licence, I went by what I was told by the NIS, then Tida said the same thing, (prob got their info from the NIS)

but I have recently found out that this is not the case. I can't put a link on here to it (as the link would not be allowed).

Thanks for the link werewolf and clarifying about the licence.

I also remember it being said about the insurance not covering these dogs.

thanks for posting the link

that's what I meant about the information, may be out dated, I have since found new updated information.

So that is why I included Sarloos and Czech on my list.

Also there is no clear information as to whether the 'wolf hybrids' that were sold before the NI breed was founded had recent wolf content. So they either were, or were not wolf hybrids, no one seems to know one way or the other. The official NIS information is unclear on this

Hi Ali, I am very interested in the wolf dogs myself, can you show us the updated info you have please? I have found it hard to get info but that last communication I saw still said permission was required and the dogs are considered (rightly or wrongly) wolf hybrids. Obviously ref permission it seems this is down to the individual council.

Thanks

This does seem to be an opinion shared by a few people..

Unfortunately, as there isn't a requirement for owners to submit health data to the breed clubs, it is unrealistic to expect facts and figures. There never will be any, so opinions have to be based upon evidence available. The evidence we have available to us is in the form of pedigrees. I'm not sure that a reliable COI can be deduced (due to lack of dogs/generations), however, it is evident that inbreeding has gone on, based on these. So from this, one could read about the problems associated with inbreeding, and form their opinions based upon this. This is taken from "Population Structure and Inbreeding from Pedigree Analysis of Purebred Dogs" (Calboli FC, Sampson J, Fretwell N, Balding DJ):

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=18493074

This is an expert opinion, and one linking inbreeding with recessive genetic disorders.

However, some believe that the pedigrees are fabricated. The point is, people can only base their opinions on the (possibly unreliable) evidence they have available, and that is what has happened. I understand that it must be frustrating that people are expressing concerns over something some believe is completely untrue, but at least people are using some form of evidence on which to base their conclusions.

So, disregarding the pedigrees, there is evidence to suggest that some inbreeding has gone on. This is in the form of dogs suffering from genetic disorders. Again, as there hasn't been a comprehensive survey of dogs, we don't have any reliable figures. As a result, some may wish to deduce from this evidence, that inbreeding has gone on, and may wish to adjust their breeding programmes based upon this.

So, until all dogs are DNA profiled, we will never have proof, but there is still evidence on which to base opinions.

Thanks for your input xx

Don't worry, I'm not going to go on the prove it crusade

If you go to the shoshone site they'll tell you you may need a license, different counties have different rules. There's also an excellent document on the defra site regarding this, it also gives some excellent stats on the wolfy dogs.