The docking ban. (This thread for Gundog owners only - see note in post 2) General Chat

Well, it's official, the docking ban was given Royal Ascent on Nov 8th 2006, and becomes law on April 6th 2007.

Dawn R.

Please note

Hi All - I have moved the original thread to the Discussions Section as it has turned into a general discussion, you can find it here: http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=48734

I have also copied Nursey's first post into a new thread in this section (this thread) for Gundog Owners Only to reply/participate in.

This is for two reasons, 1) for fairness to Gundog Owners and 2) for people to see how this effects people most effected by the ban.

Everyone who is not a Gundog Owner can get involved in the general debate the link to which I posted above. This is one reason for having these dedicated sections as I think on the whole we can cater for everyones needs.

Thanks for reading

I'm confused Azz, do you mean working gundog owners, or just owners of gundogs? Sorry for being dim.

Seems a bit unfair doesnt it, cant reply in the thread unless you own a gundog! I have worked with gundogs for over 18yrs but I cant answer!
Dawn.

This may sound really crazy but I don't know how I feel about docking, thank god I no longer have docked breeds.
My initial thoughts are poor little mites, I could never take baby puppies anywhere to have their tails or dew claws removed, I just couldn't do it.
My confusion lies in the fact that my Irish Setter, Alfie had to have part of his tail amputated 2 years ago due to it splitting and becoming infected, despite antibiotics, when he would insist on constantly wagging his tail and banging it against a radiatior. A friends English Setter had a similar problem except that she had to have a second op as hers still didn't heal after the operation. Now that the fur has grown back on both our dogs you wouldn't know they had anything done unless you look at the length of their tails compared to others. Having seen the damage that just wagging can do, and how painful it is for the dog involved, I dread to think how bad the pain must be for a working dog, especially if it is outside constantly and never having a chance for it to heal. My boy got through his op with no pain at all afterwards, I was amazed as he is such a big baby and I was warned that it is a bad op once they are adults. That said, he did have a general anaesthetic so knew nothing of the distress of having it cut off whilst he was awake.
Another friend who breeds setters had a 3 day old pup stuck under the mother and, in panic, pulled it out by its tail. Horrified she was when the tip of the tail came off in her hand, the pup made no sound at all and started suckling. She phoned the vet to see if it would need to be cautarised (sp?) but was told just to keep an eye on it but not to worry too much as pup wouldn't have felt a thing.
I can't stand the thought of pain being inflicted but so many people have told me there is no pain felt at such a young age. Also, from the litter that I had in the summer there was one boy puppy that was very poorly and I had to have pts at 11 days. Whenever I went to the vet with him, which was a great deal, they kept saying to me "don't worry, he can't feel any pain at this age". If that is correct then can they really feel it if they are being docked at a couple of days old? I will follow this thread with interest as I noticed on the earlier thread that someone had stated that they can feel it being done, which adds to my confusion.

Dawn, you can be virtual co-owner of one of mine (goodness knows I have enough )

I am lucky to own a gundog who is ment to have a full tail so am not in any way effected by the ban, over all I am infavour of the ban, but may have felt differently if I owned a docked breed im not sure! I love my Loki's tail its one of his best features although as it is a large feature of the breed thats kind of the point I guess!

I am not taking sides or being funny here I genuinely am just curious to know, what is the difference between the work with gun dogs such as labs, golden retrievers etc who are not docked breeds and spaniels etc who are docked breeds?

Someone will be able to explain a lot better than I, but for example a lab and a springer-lab used to retrieving shot game..from water or land etc, whereas a spaniel can retrieve to hand well, but is more often used as a flushing breed-i.e going through dense undergrowth to flush birds/rabbits/whatever out to the gun.
As i said-very bad explanation! Dawn or Thandi will be able to explain better-i'm sure.

Thank you, Ill take two!
Dawn.

Ah I think I understand beter now thankyou!

Does anyone have any idea how it's going to affect the gamekeepers ring at Crufts? The public are paying to enter and it is really a dog show, so is that going to end?

Helen

There will be ways 'round it I am sure Helen...if only cos the KC wont want to lose revenue

Will be interesting to see how they do. It will be a real shame as I love seeing the working dogs at crufts.

Helen

They just do different jobs really, if you look in the breeds section on here, and go to gundogs, it tells you there

The docked dogs are those which are more likely to cause injury to their tails while working.

I have witnessed a few split tails (not my own dogs but working dogs of friends of mine) and all had to be amputated in the end.

I have also seen litters docked with the band method and they appeared not to notice at all, however they did cry at the removal of their dew claws.

This was some time ago, I have never witnessed tails being 'professionally' docked, i.e removed by a veterinary surgeon.

Not bothered either way, but I have seen first hand the speed at which springers work flushing birds for the gun and they move darn quick. I've never seen damage done to a tail but can imagine the pain the animal would suffer. For looks I think they do look better with a tail, but for working and if it the full tail causes problems and the tail is removed soon enough then I dont have a problem with it at all

I've seen tail damage in a working springer, only point is the dog HAD been docked, so docking clearly does not prevent tail damage.
Becky

Is that where the arguement would come in on the length of the dock ? Surely the shorter the docked tail the less likely hood of damage ? (No idea here, I've never owned a working spaniel or any spaniel period)

An injury to a docked tail seems too be down to breeders taking less and less off when docking now, I have no idea why! Ralph has a three quarter dock..but it seems slightly longer, yet it could be due to fur who knows.
Regardless, I feel the blanket ban is not a positive thing, and i do feel that this law will be bent & broke by many..infact i hold little doubt it will be totaly kept too. However, I do not wish to open this debate up again..

The thing I have issues with is that working dogs have always had LONGER docks than the show ring. I know some people will bend the rules but it is going to be very difficult to walk into a ring with short tailed dogs once the ban comes into force.
Becky

Not always. It depends who docks them. I've seen springers on a shoot who have had short docks. The norm is the longer dock but doesn't mean the shorter dock isn't done a working springer.

Helen