Thoroughbred Shih Tzu with 10% Cavalier King Charles Questions

Discussion in 'Shih Tzu' started by Michael Ussher, Dec 12, 2021.

  1. Michael Ussher

    Michael Ussher New Member

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    Thoroughbred Shih Tzu with 10% Cavalier King Charles

    Hi all. First post. Delighted to find a forum on Shih Tzus. I hope this has not been covered before. My wife and I bought a Shih Tzu from a reputable breeder in Ireland. He is an oversized Shih Tzu tipping the scales at 10.3 kg but he has been brilliant. Back is long but but beautifully balanced with a great tail and proud walk. We did the thoroughbred Embark test and we were quite taken aback to get a 10% Cavalier King Charles in his makeup. I have queried this with Embark and they are looking for additional information. Our Zeus is not IKC and when we did look originally it was practically impossible to get one that was IKC registered. The male line is definitely Asia but the female line has European ancestry. Question for the forum is - how common is it to get a mix in a Shih Tzu thoroughbred ?
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  3. Helidale

    Helidale Member

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    I think not having KC documents is the clue that your breeder was less than ideal. No documents would be available because their stock was not pure-bred.
    If you decided to buy another Shih Tzu, always check that the puppy would come with a pedigree, an IKC or UK Kennel Club registration certificate, and a microchip registration certificate. You could also check whether the breeder is also a member of a breed club, (Shih Tzu Club of Ireland). The club secretary will usually give advice to people looking for puppies. Members of breed clubs usually have to sign up to a code of ethics which is usually more stringent than that of the National KC's.
    Another warning. There are clubs such as Companion Dog Club, Dog Lovers Registration club, who will supply registration certificates to anyone, and for anything. No breed records are needed and they can be fabricated. These certificates are not worth the paper that they are printed on. In GB always look for a genuine IKC, or KC registration. In the meantime you have a happy healthy boy who will bring you lots of love and pleasure.
  4. Michael Ussher

    Michael Ussher New Member

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    Hi Carole. Many thanks for the very informative reply. I will attempt to post some pictures of Zeus and you will see why when we saw him at 8 weeks and saw the parents into their home in Strokestown, Roscommon as to why we bought him. Very recent picture taken off him in his shaggy state. He likes quite different after a grooming session.

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  5. Michael Ussher

    Michael Ussher New Member

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    I have attached some detail from the Embark tests. Although I am disappointed with the fact that he is not 100% thoroughbred but he seems to have had good results with only having one variant that needs to be highlighted to the vet. A blood test will have to be done so that a new baseline can be done so ensure that is liver can be monitored in the future. We would like to have him as long as possible and will put more effort into tuning his diet. His long back was a concern of ours but thankfully nothing came up in the tests. His inbreed score was 18% and he got a decent woofiness score of 1.5%

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  6. Michael Ussher

    Michael Ussher New Member

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    We did go to a recent show in Navan and did meet 2 professional breeders of Shih Tzus and one for the Lhaso Apso. We are looking to get a pup from one of them in the new year. The woman that we bought Zeus off was very nice and very open about what we were buying. We knew that they were not IKC registered and we bought on trust. Zeus did have a umbilical hernia and as a precaution had an operation on it at 5 months. He has taken a lot of work but enjoyable work to get him properly socialised. He has an awful lot of the great traits of a Shih Tzu. Compared to the cockers that we have had before he is quite exceptional although he is only 13 months. Hopefully Embark will had a bit more light on the mix in him. No family tree was given on the test. The silver lining has been the clean health report.

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  7. Chris B

    Chris B Member

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    Whatever his make up - he's gorgeous and you are no doubt proud to have him.

    Lots of love to take and give, hopefully for a long, long time to come x
  8. Helidale

    Helidale Member

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    He is a pretty lad with beautiful eyes, and I'm sure you are very proud of him. I'm sure you will have a beautiful relationship for many years to come.
  9. Michael Ussher

    Michael Ussher New Member

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    Many thanks Chris & Carol for the kind posts. I did have a look through the forum a few days ago and there was some very useful threads.

    Embark did come back to us when the mixed ancestry was queried. They reviewed their tests and confirmed that it was still correct. They stated that the Cavalier King Charles is at the great Grandfather line and it could be from the paternal or maternal line. It would involve a test of the parents to determine where it came from (which is not going to happen !)

    I was very impressed with how it was handled and really glad that I went with them. Kit was bought off a EU site & $149 was paid for it. It took about a month to come with UPS but no customs duty was looked for. Swap went back - paid €10 for registered post to the US and got the result via my account in about 3 weeks.

    The test results have been forwarded by my better half to our breeder. There was no remarks made about the mixed ancestry :)

    One red flag has been the 18% in breed score and to be honest it's a miracle that Zeus has got away with a clean report.

    Having wrestled with the 90% Shih Tzu it was nice to see a definition of Thoroughbred as only needing 87.5%, so I'm going to think of our munchkin as a Shih Tzu :)

    For anyone buying a Shih Tzu, I would definitely look for proof of the dogs lineage and a health report of the parents plus a health report. I met a women recently outside the vets where her Shih Tzu had developed poor eyesight at 2 and it was practically blind now at 7. There are a lot of breeders who have not registered so you are buying privately so there is no come back. Zeus was bought instinctively, but for anyone buying a new pup, it is a risky undertaking.

    Attached is a very recent picture of Zeus going for a dip. He doesn't swim but loves going into the water. We enjoy putting the effort into him. Zeus gives it back many fold bringing us great joy.

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  10. Helidale

    Helidale Member

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    You manage his coat very well. He must take a lot of drying and grooming when he goes so deep into the water. Of course you must think of him as a Shih Tzu. There is a saying, if it looks like a duck, swims like a duck and quacks like a duck - then it must be a duck! :D
    Thanks for the update from Embark.
    Happy Christmas.
  11. Chris B

    Chris B Member

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    Just look at him. Of course he's a shih tzu and anyone (even DNA testing) that says otherwise is lying :)

    He's so cute bless him
  12. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    My Tornado-dog has mostly parsons (40-60%) and the same range percentage of collie, shih tzu and peke (10-25% each). Looking at him, I consider him a parsons/collie. His physical and behavioral display of shih tzu and peke are just about zero, so while he has those in him, I don't consider him as such.

    Zeus is a shih tzu in every way that counts. As a teen, I worked at a dog boarding kennel whose owner did shih tzu rescue. Zeus looks more like a shih tzu than most of the ones I see these days.

    Here is an explanation of dna results in regards to purebreds: https://embarkvet.com/breeders/reso.../advice-and-best-practices/purebred-as-mixed/
  13. Michael Ussher

    Michael Ussher New Member

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    Many thanks Chris and Carol and and in particular Toed for the very informative link.

    When I was delving into history of the Shih Tzu I did read that some unscrupulous breeders were quietly mating another breed into the mix to correct a trait. And then breeding that mix out of it so that it was more Shih Tzu. Zeus has a long back and did lack colours. If he gets a summer cut he would end up as a white Shih Tzu so we have him hand clipped so that he retains the colour which is at the end of the hair. So our groomer takes particular care with him including his whiskers :)

    On the attached pictures you can see the side profile with his short front legs. His hind quarters are quite muscular and this gives him a bunny hop when his pace picks up. He would be nearly twice the size of a small Shih Tzu. 30cm at the shoulders and 39cm on the back length at 10.3kg to 10.4kg in weight. At the moment he is 19 in human years (13 months) so he would be nearing his peak.

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  14. Malka

    Malka Member

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    I think that Zeus is adorable, just as he is! :007: Your comment "some unscrupulous breeders were quietly mating another breed into the mix to correct a trait." rang a bell because many years ago I used to breed Griffons, and there was told of rumours about Pugs having been added into the mix in the past - I do not remember the reason why - resulting in some red Griffons being rather light in colour and not the rich red they should be.

    The reason I heard about it was because I was at Crufts one day with my mentor, who was showing one of her bitches, and asked her why one of the Griffons being shown was much lighter than the others. I was comparatively new into breeding and still had a lot to learn.
  15. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    I heard that a local akita club was breeding in Belgian Groenendahls to create longhaired akitas. This club was really whacko and I did not doubt the rumor.
  16. Chris B

    Chris B Member

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    Zeus is gorgeous.

    I bet he melts a few hearts when you are out and about :)
  17. who owns who

    who owns who Member

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    There are already long coated Akitas. They are considered to not be breed standard and therefore shouldn’t be bred. I read, or heard somewhere that long coated ones had a softer temperament. But OMG, why would you want to add more fur to a dog that sheds profusely.
  18. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    Yeah, the whole thing was stupid. But this club was whacko. One of the members approached me when I had my akita and shepmix at a pet store and invited me to join. I told my dad and he said to stay as far away from them as possible. They had a very bad reputation in the show circuit (for obvious reasons).
  19. Michael Ussher

    Michael Ussher New Member

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    Thank you all for the posts and it was interesting to hear about the Akitas & the Griffons.

    Yesterday I meet with another woman with a 18 month old Shih Tzu and walked with her for about 15 minutes. Her dog was two thirds the size of Zeus and was quieter and she kept him on the lead along on open safe area. Her dog had the wide eyed looked of a good looking thoroughbred Shih Tzu. Comparing her dog with Zeus, mine had a more European look with the eyes slightly closer together. Generally Zeus does not really engage with other Shih Tzus although he did play along but in a tame way. He is much more vigorous with a cross breed e.g. Cockapoo, Cavachon, Labradooble or a Beagle.

    When you go back into how the Shih Tzu was breed, they primarily mention the Lhasa Apso and the Pekingese. But it seems then Palace Eunuchs when they got the chance did their own thing and put a pug into the mix. It's a little ironic to hear of it happening with the Griffons.
  20. Malka

    Malka Member

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    If you look at a Pug and a Rough Griffon, the resemblance is not very obvious. But if you look at a Smooth Griffon you can definitely see a resemblance in the features. In fact we used to joke and call Pugs and Griffons "cousins". But that one I saw at Crufts - a rough - was the only one I ever saw. And whether the rumour was true or not was never proven.

    If ever I was out with any of my girls and people asked about my two smooth girls, I would say they were miniature Boxers - and more than a few actually believed me, because when you mention Griffon to most people, they automatically think of the roughs "oh, you mean those ones with the beards!"

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