When does a wolf become a dog?(GSD Wolf or Dog? ) Discussions

Discussion in 'German Shepherd Dog' started by Tupacs2legs, Nov 16, 2010.

  1. Tupacs2legs

    Tupacs2legs New Member

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    layla

    When does a wolf become a dog?(GSD Wolf or Dog? )

    wasnt sure where to put this..breed section,cross breeds..mods?:blush: :blush: ...and its prob been discussed before :blush:

    German Shepherds Wolf or Dog

    All dogs are "wolfdogs". The only difference between them (besides appearance and temperament) is the number of generations away from a "pure" wolf the individual canine is. The original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutche Schaferhunde (SZ), shows several pure wolves were used to "create" the breed and this was less than 100 years ago! Similar events can be uncovered for Alaskan Malamutes, Siberian Huskies, Belgian Shepherd types, and many rarer-breed "dogs". German Shepherds were recently the MOST POPULAR KC breed. Imagine that -- a 'wolfdog' is the most popular working/companion dog!

    I think a key question to be answered is: WHEN does a 'wolf become a dog??

    l. Since the wolf and the dog are the same species, is there really such an entity as a wolf "HYBRID", as it is generally acknowledged that all dogs and wolves are descended from an extinct animal in pre-historic times named 'Canis Lupus' (Dog Wolf).
    2. Since all dogs are descended from wolves, are not all dogs 'wolfdogs'? - the only difference between them (besides appearance and temperament) being the number of generations away from a 'pure' wolf the individual is.
    3. Are we really not just talking about 'recent' wolf crosses (the onus being on us to define 'recent'' .
    Many (but not all!) of the dogs we have today resulted from the PRIMARY domestication of the Old World Southern Wolf, a smaller, less pack-oriented animal than the Northern Wolf, the wolf we are most familiar with today and which most of the 'recent' wolf crosses have used. I say MANY dogs, but not all because many of the Northern breeds are the result of a SECONDARY domestication of the result of the primary with the Northern Wolves as 'recent' as 90 years ago (documented in the German Shepherd breed). The primary happened thousands of years ago, but it is a mistake to think that that was the LAST time wolves were used in dog breeds.

    I present the following research for your perusal:

    The original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutche Schaferhunde (SZ), shows several pure wolves were used to 'create' the breed.

    Captain Von Stephanitz, of the German infantry, bought sheep-herding dogs (many of them field trial winners) from all over Europe in the late 1800's and early 1900's and bred them together to create his 'ultimate service dog'. He started a registry and stud book. His favourite dog, Hektor, he gave the first # (SZ 1). Hektor was 1/4th wolf. He was bred to every decent bitch around, and all the dogs originally imported to the UK & America were proudly traced back to him. Shortly thereafter, the German Shepherd Dog's (GSD) name was changed to Alsatian Wolf Dog. Their popularity soared for a while, then fell tremendously as the media sensationalised every trivial remotely negative event that occurred associated with a canine with the word 'wolf' in it. There were arguments left and right - " Was the Alsatian Wolfdog (GSD) the best working/most capable/most intelligent dog that ever walked the face of the earth OR was Alsatian Wolfdog (GSD) the unpredictable/livestock eating/human attacking beast from hell?? Sound familiar? Well, we know how that one turned out. The name was eventually changed back in 1977 to German Shepherd Dog, and over the last few years things have calmed down, and the GSD soon reached it peak at the top of the 'most popular dog' list .
    In the first decade of 1900, Von Stephanitz wrote a book (in German) about his loyal hard working dogs called "The German Shepherd in Word and Picture". In this book he documents the above heritage and pleas to the breeders not "to add more wolf blood" into his dogs as he had ALREADY found the IDEAL combination. In 1923, an American version was translated VERBATIM. Not many copies were printed and few still exist. Fang@howling.com has a pricey (about $350) original and more may (?) be found by doing rare book searches. In 1932, an 8th Enlarged and 'Revised' (read 'Sanitised' !) version was financed by English speaking 'interests'. All references to the positive wolf heritage were removed and most GSD fanciers have been denying RECENT wolf heritage ever since.

    Herr Strebel is quoted in "The Alsatian Wolf-Dog", by G. Horowitz as saying that he "has seen how easily a wolf can step into the pedigree of Alsatians without causing all those terrible phenomena that are considered to be the results of crossing with a wolf". He gives an example of a hybrid wolf (whose granddam was a wolf) who "absolutely had the temperament of a Sheepdog; who was obedient and faithful, and the pet of the house" (page 14, "Concerning the Wolf Cross"). He goes on to state that this is a striking example of how quickly all trace of wolf's blood is lost in a 'domesticated' breed.
    In 1912, Monsieur Henry Sodenkamp wrote in the Belgian Journal, Chasse et Peche (The Chase and Hunt), that it is the French opinion that "THE WOLF LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE ALSATIAN". (The breed was partially created in Alsace, France).

    Mores Plieningen, SZ #159, who was bred to the first Stud dog, Horand Von Grafath (previously known as Hektor) and whose blood is said to be in the pedigree of every GSD in the world today, was the granddaughter of a wolf at the Stuttgart Zoo/Gardens. Their son, Hektor Von Schwaben, SZ #13, figured heavily in the early GSD line. (Captain Von Stephanitz bought Hektor Liksrhein and renamed him Horand Von Grafath, after his kennel name.)

    In the original German Shepherd studbook, Zuchtbuch fur Deutsche Schaferhunde (SZ), within the 2 pages of entries from SZ #41 to SZ #76, there are 4 WOLF Crosses.".

    Note: fang@howling.com OWNS the actual Volume I and II of the GSD Stud books.

    From the foregoing, and assuming that all present day dogs are mainly descended from an original 18 dogs in Stephanitz Kennels, it must be assumed that all German Shepherd dogs are from one third to one quarter RECENT wolf!!!, and TOTALLY 'Ancient Wolf' by heritage.

    This Artical was written by Ann Dresselhus and can be located at http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/gsd1.htm
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  3. boredinstroud

    boredinstroud New Member

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    Emily
    Interesting question - according to some of the people we see round about my lovely GSD x NI hasn't yet become a dog ;-D
  4. Bitkin

    Bitkin Member

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    Sally
    A very interesting thread - and gives pause for thought.

    Basically though, I would say that a Wolf becomes a dog when it entirely loses it's wild instincts and totally accepts domesticity.

    However,having said that, clearly some instincts can never be totally eradicated in some dogs, such as aggression or the compulsion to forage or chase other animals with intent to kill. Becoming tame and dependant on humans does not necessarily mean that all wolf traits are dead and buried.
  5. k9paw

    k9paw New Member

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    H
    There is a part 'of wolf' in every dog.
  6. MickB

    MickB New Member

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    Mick
    Ironically, the "wolfier" looking dogs (and those which share many "pack" characteristics with wolves) - the northern breeds - are further removed genetically from the wolf than almost any others. The Alaskan Malamute and the Siberian Husky have been identified as two of 14 "ancient breeds" whose genetic makeup has been distinct from the wolf for many thousands of years. (“Genetic Structure of the Purebred Domestic Dog” - Science, Volume 304, May 21, 2004). This research showed that the often repeated myth about the Inuit breeding their dogs with wolves was just that - a myth. The Inuit would have known that despite some desirable characteristics, wolves do not work happily or effectively in harness as sled dogs and this would have made any such interbreeding a serious no-no for tribes which depended for their very lives on their sled dogs.

    Mick
  7. Tupacs2legs

    Tupacs2legs New Member

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    layla
    oh im aware and with you on the sled dogs,but gsd's......... ;-)
  8. Tupacs2legs

    Tupacs2legs New Member

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    layla
    really :? :?
  9. Tupacs2legs

    Tupacs2legs New Member

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    layla
    lol oh i know that one ;-) :)
  10. Tassle

    Tassle New Member

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    H
    :lol: - thats our Spaniel x out then!!
  11. JoedeeUK

    JoedeeUK Member

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    Deejay
    Sorry but this is a load of male cow droppings.

    I have a first edition print of Von Stephanitz book(which is in German & took me forever to read the first time round :shock: ) & there is no mention of the use of wolves in the development of the GSD. The breed was originally a mix of shepherd's dogs including the dogs that became the Hovawart(this is where the LC in GSDs comes from).

    Ann D has been debunked by the SV & BTW the GSD was never ever called the Alsatian in Germany & the breed was not partially developed in France as Alsace Lorraine was part of Germany from 1871 to 1919 & by then the GSD was established.

    In totally incorrect name "Alsatian Wolfdog"was given to the breed post WWI when anything Germany was hated here in the UK. Lieutenant-Colonel James Baldwin & Colonel J T C Moore-Brabazon formed the"Alsatian Wolfdog"club is now the GSD League & Club of the UK

    The KC soon dropped the"Wolfdog"part of the name & eventually added(GSD)after the name, after over 40 years of trying to get the name corrected, it was Raymond Oppenheimer(A Bull Terrier expert)who put the change of name to GSD(Alsatian)up at a KC AGM & it was passed.

    Finally this year the totally incorrect Alsatian has now been dropped so 9 years short of a centuary of being wrongly named the KC has now acknowledged the coorect name of the breed.

    So all the quotes from "allegedly"/"apparently"German sources using the name Alsatian are not all the seem.

    The breed that do have Wolves within their pedigrees are the Saarloos & CSV both of which are much more recent breeds than the GSD

    BTW I have never owned an"Alsatian"all my GSD were from direct German imports or their F1 generation offspring.
  12. Tupacs2legs

    Tupacs2legs New Member

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    layla
    joedee.... do you class Czech line gsd's as pure?
  13. JoedeeUK

    JoedeeUK Member

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    Deejay
    Never had any real interest in anything other than the SV registered German dogs. I have no idea what went on during the communist era & before that in Czech bred GSDs

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