Raw Chicken Risk to Dogs? Diet

Discussion in 'General Dog Chat' started by CaroleC, Feb 9, 2018.

  1. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    Raw Chicken Risk to Dogs?

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  3. Malka

    Malka Member

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    Interesting Carole, thank you. The thing is that first Pereg [since ~ 2011]and now Tikva have turkey necks, not chicken necks [although chicken wings and turkey hearts, livers, gizzard etc. But these are all human quality Kasher poultry that the dogs eat raw and I cook [usually in a slow cooker] for myself. Same food from same poulterer.

    So how come I have never seen any warnings for Kasher poultry linked to human paralysis? Is it just because it is dangerous for dogs when eaten raw? Only there is no warnings on fresh or frozen poultry that it might be dangerous. Actually it would not be permitted to be sold if it could be dangerous.

    So is this something just in the UK?
  4. Chris B

    Chris B Member

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    Very interesting article. It is saying raw chicken, Juli, and from what I understand it is the link between raw chicken and possibly campylobacter that could be the trigger.
  5. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    This is a serious article, which I thought merited sharing. It was not directed at the way that any raw feeders feed their dogs, though I did realise that it might be interpreted this way - hence the tin hat comment.
    This research is published by the University of Melbourne, so is Aussie in origin, and as they are mainly talking of raw chicken necks, I would assume these are human consumption by-products. It would appear that these severe reactions have been confined to canines, as the article does not mention humans. If they are correct that these tragic deaths have been caused by the dog's auto-immune responses, I wonder if it might provide a clue as to why so many dogs either refuse to eat, or have allergic reactions to, chicken meat.
  6. Malka

    Malka Member

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    Maybe I have totally misunderstood the article, but it is talking about raw chicken, and I have never come across a human eating raw chicken - yet. And poulterers here usually only sell chicken necks as a part of a chicken back/carcass for soup. When Tikva was started on raw food after she was weaned, I gave her either half a raw chicken wing or half a raw chicken neck. These were human quality food, bought fresh and frozen by me - and fed to her straight from the freezer. And while I was weaning her I chewed up very small pieces of raw chicken [and fish if I had any] to give to her.

    She obviously graduated to large chunks of turkey necks and whole large chicken wings. Still bought [very] fresh, frozen by me and given to her for her breakfast straight from the freezer - her evening meat/vegetables/supplements etc being with the meat [turkey gizzards/liver/hearts or ox lung] having been defrosted the evening before.

    It is not possible to buy animal quality food here - only human quality which has been thoroughly checked by Local Authority Vets like Vadim. What happens to meat/poultry which is not considered to be Kasher, I have no idea. But that which is, is the only meat/poultry for sale - for human consumption.

    So I buy x kilos of whatever, freeze in portions, Tikva has hers raw and x amount goes into a slow cooker for me.
  7. Malka

    Malka Member

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    You did not need a tin hat Carole - because there are so many different ways of raw feeding, the one known as BARF being only one of them. Same with the Prey model.

    It is such a confused way of feeding and not an overnight thing. It takes time to learn, time to understand what is best for your pup, time to learn not just amounts but what additional supplements and vitamins are needed,

    But once everything is known and understood, I think that my version of raw feeding is healthy - and safe.

    I obviously cannot guarantee the health of chicken necks sold in Australia.
  8. GsdSlave

    GsdSlave Member

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    Acute polyradiculoneuritis in dogs has been proposed as a canine model of Guillain-Barré syndrome (GBS) in humans. This consideration initially was based on clinical, electrophysiological, and pathological similarities. The histopathological changes described in dogs with APN are similar to those of patients suffering from the demyelinating form of GBS (acute inflammatory demyelinating polyradiculoneuropathy or AIDP). Recently, the presence of anti-GM2 ganglioside antibodies (Abs) in dogs affected by APN has been demonstrated, reinforcing the hypothesis that APN is the canine counterpart of GBS.
    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jvim.15030/full

    Guillain-Barré syndrome
    https://www.healthline.com/health/guillain-barre-syndrome#causes
  9. Malka

    Malka Member

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    Thank you Vee - I think I must read up on this more as I had always assumed that the poultry I have fed raw to my dogs is as safe as that I cook for myself. It is making me wonder if the poultry that I eat, cooked for myself, is as safe as I think it is.

    Do any of those articles mention whether fast freezing from fresh makes any difference?
  10. Chris B

    Chris B Member

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    CaroleC likes this.
    I also wonder how much battery farming has added to the problem :(
  11. Wizegrl00782

    Wizegrl00782 New Member

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    I find this topic interesting! I am curious...why do people feed their dogs raw meat? Is it a personal choice? Me personally I just give Mila a good kibble & if I happen to be cutting fat off a chicken then I give her some & give my kitties some :) (its not often Im cutting fat off a chicken ;)) I like to learn new things!:)
  12. Malka

    Malka Member

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    It is not just raw meat. BARF is basically Bones And Raw Food - which includes vegetables, some fruit, and sufficient vitamins and supplements to make up what the "good" kibble could be missing.

    I am not the only raw feeder on Breedia, so why not ask some of the others?
  13. Malka

    Malka Member

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  14. GsdSlave

    GsdSlave Member

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    Basically its down to personal preference people who feed raw believe its better for their dog than complete feeds.

    There are different types of feeding raw, the prey model and the barf diet
    https://rawdogfood.co.uk/different-types-raw-feeding/
  15. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    The modern strain of broiler chicken has limited barn space, gets to see very little natural light, and is considered to be a table ready weight at just six weeks of age. To leave them any longer would be to risk leg and breastbone deformities. I think this method of mass production has to have as much effect on the texture and general vigour as it has had on the flavour of modern chicken meat.
    Unless you have a naturally reared source, or have some land of your own, both humans and their dogs have little choice but to cross their fingers and hope for the best. Not necessarily raw versus cooked diet, as I'm sure that the protein source in kibble is no better produced, but it does get steamed and extruded at high enough temperatures to kill off the worst of the bugs.
  16. Malka

    Malka Member

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    I supposed I am so used to it that I probably do believe it is better - I know that even top quality kibble was not good for Pereg. And I do like to know what goes into my girls stomach.

    I like no pongy burps. No pongy poos. And not having to brush teeth every other day as I had to with Lexi who still ended up having to have so many teeth extracted. Actually Pereg never needed her teeth brushing once on raw, and Tikva has never needed hers brushed although Ram does check them when he is here.

    My choice is for raw feeding although it would be far easier to just put an amount of kibble in her bowl. I just think it is better for her.
  17. mjfromga

    mjfromga Member

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    BARF stands for Biologically Appropriate Raw Feeding (not Bones And Raw Food) but if you look at it through and through, the name doesn't truly link because the diets these feeders use truly don't look biologically appropriate at all. Nearly ALL of them must add man made pills (supplements) for their dogs to manage on the diets and the diets are often full of vegetables, which none of my dogs would even eat.

    My last dog had great teeth all the way until the end on nothing but Pedigree chicken canned food as it was all he would eat. This current dog has good teeth at 5 years old. Our nearly 20 year old cat has great teeth on regular canned and dry cat food.

    There's zero actual science behind the BARF diet being better for dogs. There's zero actual science saying it extends lifespans or promotes better health. There's truly little to nothing behind that diet except it makes some people FEEL like they're doing better for their dogs. The only ones to truly recommend it are "holistic vets" who recommend all sorts of unproven nonsense.

    Same as the "grain free" foods that supplement brown rice or barley for potato and cost 4x as much. Since when was potato healthier than barley or brown rice? And add the extremely expensive "vegan" dog diets to that, as well. It's just marketing.

    Many dogs don't do well on raw or won't eat it and and live totally long and happy lives without it. These types of articles don't surprise me, dogs would hardly be eating farm raised chicken in the wild anyway.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2018
  18. GsdSlave

    GsdSlave Member

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    I don't care what people feed, there are pros and cons in both.
    There is no scientific evidence or long term studies, that can prove one is better than the other, only anecdotal statements on both sides, like I said before it’s down to personal choice.

    I feed complete and my dogs have all been a picture of health, I don’t get ‘pongy burps, or pongy poos.’
    I don’t clean my dog’s teeth and never had to attend a vet to have any extracted or cleaned, Heiko is 11 this year and still has good teeth.
  19. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    My hounds do not have smelly burps either. I do clean their teeth, usually weekly or fortnightly, not because they are stained, but to make sure that they don't become stained. Their poo looks and smells like poo - it's not unpleasant, but I wouldn't exactly choose it as a perfume. Eddie's inherent auto immune problems excepted, their activity level for veterans speaks for itself.
    Although I do feed a grain free complete, this is primarily to avoid maize and wheat, which are known not to help in cases of inflammatory bowel disease. Merry spent six years of her life on AG lamb and rice, and all her breeders pack certainly do well enough on that. I wouldn't object to a dog food which contained a little oats, rice or barley, - actually Ed had oat bran porridge when he had his worst tumours, just to help things along. l would also hate to deprive them of their bedtime Marrowbone biscuit - though I dread to think what is in them. We have an occasional bag of salmon and potato too, some brands can make their poo a little firm, but it adds variety and they love it.
    No really hard and fast rules, we just avoid what doesn't suit, or what reads as if it might contain rubbish.
  20. Malka

    Malka Member

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    Thank you.
    Lexi's dam was an outdoor dog who was fed on left-over scraps, and her puppies [she had litter after litter] were weaned on stale bread soaked in half water and half milk. So she was born with a predisposition to bad teeth even though I fed her on the best kibble I could get, but she started having dental problems at quite a young age with very bad breath. Hence cleaning her teeth but when her top front four teeth just fell out she had to have the dental surgery.

    Pereg's teeth were perfect, as are Tikva's.
  21. GsdSlave

    GsdSlave Member

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    So her bad teeth weren’t down to being fed complete as you implied in previous post.

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