Do we know what we own? Discussions

ok - i have read this thread all the way through.

I own a dog aggressive staffie - not my doing I might add as he is a rescue. In my opinion he does not enjoy beign dog aggressive as I have seen him socialise with one other dog who he adored and loved to follow around - he came to trust and realise that she posed no threat to him, sadly she died on MOnday and I fear that he may never have a companion like that again.

Bruno misses out on chasing other dogs in the park, in being off lead and generally doing other doggy things down to his fear aggression of other dogs - his first form of defence is attack. At 5 1/2 it is now become very difficult to find people who are willing to allow me to try and socialise him with their dogs due to the "reputation" that most staffords are seen to have - and in fairness with Bruno rightly so.

Had I a choice between Bruno as he is with dog aggression and Bruno as he is without - every time I would say without - and not because I am too lazy to control him but because for him he would benefit greatly from the dog socialisation.

A very true post
All breeds have changed...prey drives have been tamed, gaurding instincts mellowed etc etc. And why? For the breeds best intersts.
I think its a pretty rose tintned, maybe even slightly arrogant, view to have that they should be allowed to do something cause its bred into them.
Would it be acceptable if terriers went roaming the neighbourhoods ripping up anything small n furry?-No.
Would it be acceptable if a pastoral breed began to attempt to herd everything in sight (as mentioned, can be a common problem)?-No.
Would it be acceptable if a gaurding breed went around tearing into anyone who came too near their homes (sadly this seems to becoming quite true in days of late)?-No.
Dogs were once bred to fullfill a purpose, they should still be able to fullfill this purpose by the KC standard for any breed, but it is not, in my eyes, acceptable to say that all staffords are/will be/eventually will turn out dog aggressive. TBH that would seem too me as an easy option to use the "But its bred into them" thing as an excuse to warrant that of an untrained dog.

Hi Roxy and Hayley, Its interesting for me that Border Collies have been hilighted as an example since I have one. Yes they can be difficult but like you Hayley myself and my partner were and are well aware of the breeds facinating instincts, traits and the difficulties these can bring. We have both worked very hard to have a happy family dog, which has been and still is an extreamly rewarding and healthy experiance. We have a very happy and trouble free sheep dog in our home. We were and still are more than prepared for the ongoing future difficulties faced.

The point is that staffy owners have a serious safty issue if they have a dangerous dog. Aggresive behavoir cannot and must not be tollerated, and lets get one thing straight a Stafford is not supposed to be aggresive. At one time perhaps you could argue that this was the case when they were used for fighting but thats a long long time ago when the breed was shaped to suit our needs. Its now in the vast majority a family pet and aggressivnes has no place in the home. Aggressivness is something we as humans bred and encouraged into the breed and is now something we should remove, if nothing else as a safty precaution.

I think, in passing, you have hit the nail quite on the head my friend! It shouldn't have to be that all bull breed owners 'Have to be on edge and control their dog when it comes to meeting others". No dog, regardless of what it was once bred for should be deemed ok to exhibit such behaviour as dog aggression-simple
A rescue with these problems is a different matter-been there, done that allbeit with a slightly different breed than a stafford. Sometimes, with perseverence (sp), there can be a miracle and these dogs can be 'trained out of the agression' and maybe even learn to trust other dogs-sadly sometimes it is just too late to rectify such behaviour. But for one to have the chance of rearing a stafford from a pup and to let the training of non dog agression past just because they were once bred for it-to me, seems totally ridiculous and slightly irresponsible.
Also an intersting fact, i was told by a dog behaviourist friend of ours that dog aggression sometimes manifests into 'everting' (including human!) aggression if the appropriate courses of action are not taken. Just something i thought really intersting..
(my apologies for any grammatical errors-im on my soapbox!)

Answer me this; in all honesty do you condone dog fighting?
In todays society, dog fighting holds no place-its barbaric i think we all are in agreeance there, yes? Therefore, the stafford will not have too fullfill that job at all, they still will be required to be able to fullfill the job by the KC standards, but they do not actually have too do it.
In my eyes, and i know a few old stafford judges (not sure if they still knock about the rings anymore) the sheer fiesty temper, that terrier spirit, that utter cheek to them, that temperament where they will not give in and can often be (meant in nicest possible way) stubborn-are all factors that, in my eyes, could make them able to fullfill their job-they don't need dog aggression anymore-its not needed! Great Danes don't hunt boar anymore, bulldogs don't fights bulls, Can't remember the last time a Bull mastiff was working with a gamekeeper, nor the last time a rottie was herding or pulling carts-but they are still very much the breed that they once were. They are still very much the breed, but bettered. Bettered by creating a temperament that is sound, that is well mannered-that makes them the part of the family we love

It seems that your "best way forward" is not so effective then! :?

What is it that turns you on about having a potentially aggressive dog? There is no place in civilised society for dog-dog aggression, so how can it possibly be a loss to the staffy temperament. Staffies have so very much to offer, but you, who claim to love them, would condemn them to extinction by refusing to give up on this entirely undesirable trait!

You say that breeders should not try to breed it out, that it can't be trained out, and then give us an example of when you failed to control it. It's exactly this sort of attitude that perpetuates the staff's bad name.

Fortunately for the breed there are plenty of owners who select for good staffy temperament, successfully socialise their pups, and keep them under control when necessary.

You might not like it, but you have to accept that breeds must evolve to fit in with our changing society. It's like the old analogy of the oak tree which breaks in the high wind, while the reeds bend with the wind and survive. If you want the breed you love to be around for much longer, you're going to have to start valuing the wonderful aspects of their personalities above the despicable ones.

I think Dani hit the nail on the head too, owning a staffie with no tendency to dog on dog aggression must surely be infinitely more pleasurable for everybody (including the dog that has to cope with and try to forget those aggressive urges) ...than having a dog aggressive one. What is the point of keeping them dog aggressive????? Surely it would be nicer for you if you could leave all your dogs together or have them have fun with other dogs in the park whilst you have a nice dog chat?????

I also stand by my point that due to bad breeding and handling some lines of staffies are becoming people aggressive too. Sorry.

Luke...fantastic points raised and stated really well.

Totally aside to the stafford debate - do you really raise and train all your dogs the same way?

Should have specified more in my post, i moreso meant that all the dogs have and will be brought up with the same ethics of whats right and wrong, of what is acceptable behaviour and what isn't-just because they are of a certain breed doesn't allow them to exhibit any inapropriate behaviour (i.e biting, dog agression, human agression, and so forth..). Of course each dog has its own charcter (irespective *sp* of breed) therefore get treated, when training, in whicher way is required to benefit them.
Hope thats cleared things up a bit..again, sorry for not being more specific
It was more meant to be an example that i do not view allowances to be made of certain types of unacceptable behaviour just because a dog is of a certain breed.

To a degree yes, but it will always be part of a true BC.

It is a really complex subject, as I cannot condone breeding for aggression in any dog. However, due to the lack of "true" working GSDs being bred in this country, the police are having to look abroad for their next generation of working dogs - and even looking to change breed to Malinois. Is this down to show and pet breeders breeding the true character out of the German Shepherd - to dilute it, so it is more acceptable in a home environment?

I have to sit on the fence on this really, as I can't make my mind up.

Yes I do know, and thats exactly what I am trying to say, aggression should be worked towards breeding out.

Ahh, got you now Luke - thanks I agree with you too.

First off i dont fight my dogs
IF YOU KNEW ANYTHING ABOUT FIGTHTING DOGS OR EVEN STAFFORDS YOU WOULD SEE THAT MINE
A: are not even near the condition a fighting dog should be in
B: can you see any scars on my dogs?
C: i could not own a fighting dog and keep more than one day as it rip each other apart straight away

SO no i dont fight my dogs

Luke do i agree with dog fight NO i dont!
Do i pretend the history wasnt there NO i dont
DO i understand what my dogs are capable of YES

Let me ask you lot this

If i said to you i own a tread mill for my dogs, break sticks are in my house would you say im a dog fighter then?

As I said before I understand some of the point you are trying to make, take my dog for example he is a water dog and therefore loves water it can be a pain at times when hes filthy muddy and I have to rinse him off again or when he cries outside the bathroom door cause he knows im having a shower without him, but he loves water it is part of his personality and theres no way Id train it out of him (maybe the barking outside the bathroom but not the want to be in water! ) or want it to be bred out of his breed. Which I think is the point you are trying to make regarding aggression they were bred to fight so taking the disire out of them changes the breed, I get the point, but and this is a big but, loki's love of water does not harm anyone (except perhaps my car interior! ) and it makes him a happier dog, dog aggression does not make for a happier dog I dont believe and I think brundog's post explains beautifully how a dog isnt happier for being dog aggressive and actually probably not as happy as one who enjoys the company of other dogs!
So as I say I do understand your point and if it was regarding breeding the love of water out of a water dog the friendlyness out of a lab or the sheepdog qualities out of a collie I would totally agree with you if the breeds traits dont suit dont own the breed, BUT agression is not acceptable and if it can be bred out of any breed it should for the sake of all the dogs down the line that may end up being put to sleep becaue they have become to aggresive to manage, and for all the dogs that may be injurred or damaged by dog aggressive dogs!

You say prevention by control I say prevention by breeding dogs of good temperament in the first place, what happens if go forbid one of you dogs got out? Obviously we all do everything in our abilities to prevent one of out dogs getting lose, but it does happen occaionally there are rare occasions when we are unable to control our dogs then what!

As for break sticks, any Molosser owner whose dogs live in a multiple dog home should not be without these. Any owner that doesn't shouldnt own mulitiple dogs.

Treat mills on the other hand although were an important part of 'fighting dog history' also play a very big part in helping to keep your dog fit and conditioned. (But no I do not own a tread mill )

its animal planet, sun newspaper,dogs today, rspca, peta CRAP that make people think that break sticks and tread mills are only used by dog fighters

why are u saying treat mill?

human agression is NOT exceptable but dog agression will forever lying under the skin of bull and terrier breeds and no matter how much you dont like its there

also my dogs are NEVER EVER LEFT ALONE, they have a big fence they cannnot get out of, someone is with them 100 percent of the time

and my dogs sleep in my bed so i wont come downstairs and find nothing in my house as they always watched

I disagree.....Take the Olde Tyme Bulldogge for instance, dog on dog aggression is (unless you are a stupid OTB owner) something that does not exist within this breed, read the history, its all been bred out. Does that make my dogs any less Bull Breed because they dont take other dogs bait?