Epilepsy in dogs Health

I will do everything and anything I can to give advice, but this is my advice, my experience. I am not a vet but as Ram says, I probably now know more than most regular vets know. Why do you think he lets me adjust her Pb according to how I feel she is doing?

After her very long sz-free streak when she started seizing again, it was my suggestion to increase her Pb. And when it made no difference but her blood plasma Pb level went over the roof, it was my decision to slowly reduce her Pb. And three months later her Pb level was back to what it had been a year ago.

It is now slightly high again three months later - not majorly high but my decision is to slowly reduce her Pb and see what happens. And re-test again in three months and not six months.

But - her liver enzymes are spot on perfect which is why neither Ram nor Dr Yigal are over bothered about the blood plasma result. And both are in full agreement to let me do what I think is best for my girl.

After all, I can always increase her Pb - I have a cupboard full of it.

I repeat - I am not an expert. I have human medical knowledge but no veterinarian knowledge. But oh how I know about canine epilepsy, even after just three years. And she, Bless her, is counted as having severe epilepsy but you know what? She is my girl and I love her.

Apart from things like Milk Thistle, SAMe and Taurine that help support her liver against the possible damage of Phenobarbitone, there are other supplements which help her central nervous system. Taurine does that but there are others, and as long as her CNS can be kept as calm as possible, the more it helps stop possible brain damage from the seizures.

But there is no one thing fits all, and what I have learned from Pereg and am still learning, is that I have to go by her - follow her seizures and learn from them.

I will never learn even a fraction of what I need, but as long as she is happy then really that is all that matters.

Somehow I feel that I have to write down all I am learning, if only to possibly help someone in the future.

I do not know if I am being any help though.

After a long joint telephone discussion with both Ram, my Vet, and Yigal, the Vet in charge of the outside laboratory who checks Pereg's blood plasma Pb level and who did, until we all realised it was a waste of time and money, also did the full Thyroid panel [Pereg does not have any thyroid problems, she is just epileptic], and who both agree that I am right in adjusting her Pb as I consider it necessary, Ram is going to get some Pb liquid/syrup/forgot which, which will be made up to the equivalent of 100mg but which I can dose either dropper or syringe.

As tablets here are only available in 100mg and 15mg doses, and it is not so easy when I am, like now trying to reduce her dose as it makes no difference to her seizures, at the moment it is either 65mg TID which is half of a 100mg tablet - not always possible to cut accurately, plus a 15mg one. My aim is to get her back to 50mg TID very slowly, but with cutting the pills not being accurate I wanted a better way.

So - we are going to try the liquid version which means that I can reduce [or increase if necessary] by 5mg a time, knowing that if I measure out 50mg it will be exact and not the hit and miss of cutting a 100mg pill. Even with the most expensive pill cutters they do not work perfectly and need replacing regularly.

Will it work? No idea. At the moment her liver enzymes are fine although for the second time her blood plasma Pb level was high. And it will probably be a good idea to get it down and keep it down to the half way between lowest and highest parameters.

If both Ram and Yigal think it is a good idea and are satisfied that I will not only be able to do it but be aware of what I am doing and why, then what have I to lose? For me the only important one in the equation is Pereg, and I would never do anything that might harm her.

We will not beat The Monster - epilepsy - nothing will, but am going to do everything to try and control her seizures.

Wish me luck!

The liquid version certainly makes sense to me - much easier to get the dose you want.

Pereg is so lucky to have you fighting her corner.

It is not just me Janet. It is Dr Ram Perer [do not know all his titles, sorry Ram] who is my Vet and who trusts me, and Dr Yigal Anug DVM, Diploma Clinical Pathology at the outside specialist laboratory who will also discuss anything I need to know about things like blood plasma Pb levels and Thyroid levels, who both trust me and will answer anything and everything, and who will both discuss my ideas and what they think about them.

Ram helped me the day Pereg was diagnosed was his answer to my comment "oh well, she is not ill, she is just epileptic" - his answer being "oh well, I am not ill, I am just epileptic".

I only normally speak with Yigal if I have a concern about Pereg's blood tests that have to be sent to him. Most Ram does in his own equipment while I wait. But Ram does know that if I have a query I will speak with Yigal - it is not going over his head it is just wanting a bit more information. Yigal was the one who said not to waste my money getting Thyroid tests any more as Pereg is not hypothyroid. I mean he could have just kept taking my money,right?

He was not over-bothered about her latest Pb level - said it can go up, can go down, but also agreed that as her liver enzymes are, so far, good, then OK leave it up to me whether I reduce or change her Pb. As does Ram.

They trust me. I have no veterinarian knowledge but did have six years human medical training but it is not exactly the same.

But no way would I risk the health of my beloved Pereg by messing about with her medication dosage. Because they both know that I know what I am doing.

And if you had the slightest idea how much I love Pereg you would, I think, agree with them.

I have permission from some other epi owners to copy and post their experiences here but it will have to wait as I am still very woozy from yesterday's bad falls.

Will post them when I can see properly but they are very interesting from epi owners' experiences.

Sorry it will have to wait.

OK - this is about Norwich Terriers, as written by an epi owner and posted with her permission.
- - -
In Norwich Terriers where it's common because of the small number of them, there
are some breeders who don't see epilepsy as an issue but a quirk of the breed.
- I've run across this personally in my chats on a Norrie group
:-( They are also prone to airway issues.

We adopted 2 Norwich brothers 4 years ago from a litter of 4 four from a
Schnauzer rescue that picked up their mother when they were picking up
other dogs not wanted by a commercial breeder. We've stayed in contact
with the other brothers' humans. Neither of them have seizures. One is
perfectly healthy so far, and the other almost died and was diagnosed with
the copper toxicity disease, so he's fighting I think a worse peril than
what we are. Seizures show up in this breed most commonly between 2-3
years old, and Sebastian had his first seizure on his 2nd birthday, with
Oliver 5 months later. Neither have had to go on meds yet as theirs so far
are infrequent.

We also have 2 adult Norries we were given from their breeder because of
their Epilepsy. She traveled to Europe to get Bongo as a pup, her first
Norrie and wasn't told of the issue in the line. She showed him, used him
as a stud, and then he started seizing at almost 3, so she had him neutered
and kept him as a pet. Daphne she got to breed to her then current male,
and before she came into heat, she was seizing. Tried returning her to the
person she bought her from, but they wouldn't refund the money but would
have taken her back and sold her again. So she gave them both to us
knowing they'd have a great pet only home. Also gave us Rudy, less than 2
because he had a narrowed airway and she neutered him. He ended up
starting seizures about 6 months after coming to us. He died last fall -
was on my husband's lap watching TV late one evening and started gasping
for air - his airway suddenly collapsed. Horrible - we tried to hard to
save him and brought him back a couple of times but it wasn't meant to be.
She'd paid $6,500 for these dogs and luckily was a nurse and knew she
didn't want to pass these bad genes along. That's a chunk of change for
someone to give away - very much the motivator for breeders to ignore the
issue.

When Rudy died, I contacted her to let her know, and she offered us a 6
month old she'd decided wasn't good enough for showing. Finneas is a
little over a year old and so far so good - she said she's worked hard and
been smarter in adding to her numbers and been able to get seizure free
lines in the five years since we got the other adults.

- - -

This is just about one breed. But there are many people with different breeds who want to get the epilepsy subject more talked about.

So when someone posts like this and gives me permission to copy and past it here, I will do so. Because we all think that the more people are aware of epilepsy, the more chance there is in recognising it and, maybe, one day finding the gene that causes it.

Do you have a dog that suffers from epilepsy? Then you'll know that epilepsy in a dog can be extremely frightening. Michael Hallam discovers how to bring this incurable condition under control in the August issue of Your Dog Magazine
A page from YOUR DOG

Just read this thread Malka, and I can feel your distress about pereg, and all I can say is she's so lucky to have you as a mom as you will never give up on her and always treasure her.i know what you meant in a earlier thread about she being the reason you get out of bed because I've had it myself.if it wasn't for my beloved dogs i could of easily have locked myself away when I lost my parents,but you can't do that that when you've got your four legged friends reliying on you. Dogs become your family and you'd go over hell and high water to look after them xx

Sorry Tina, and no disrespect to Michael Hallam, but it is impossible to "bring this incurable condition under control". Owners of epi dogs such as I, our Vets, our Neurologists if we use one - all we can hope for is a possible control for our beloved epis.

And please understand that although canine epilepsy is basically the same as human epilepsy, dogs do not know what or why "things" happen, and they rely on their owners/carers to medicate them accordingly, whereas a human epileptic, like yourself and like Dr Ram Perer, Pereg's wonderful vet, understands their own epilepsy and what helps them. Dogs do not have that knowledge.

And unless the dog has just a mild form of epilepsy, there is no way it can be kept under control, because seizures happen when the crossed wires in their brains short-circuit. And there is absolutely nothing that any of us can do when that happens. If the seizures have a trigger then yes, it is possible that by keeping a strict seizure diary as I and thousands of others do, then maybe, maybe, we can find a trigger and avoid it in future.

Pereg has no trigger. She has no allergies either foodwise or in the environment. Her epilepsy is Idiopathic. Of no known cause. She is a mutt of no known origin therefore it is impossible to trace her background to see if there is epilepsy there somewhere.

So - getting back to Michael Hallam and his "discovery" - and no, I have not read his article, nor do I intend to do so - if it was possible to "bring this incurable condition under control" then I, and thousands of other owners/carers of epileptic dogs, would be only too happy.

Unfortunately, it is not possible so we do the best we can. And ignore articles that promise the impossible.

Because the only certainty about canine epilepsy is the uncertainty of it.

Maybe there is, maybe there is not. And maybe the dog attack which left her with a bad puncture wound on her back/shoulder was the initial trigger that brought on her first seizure.

It was in my email Malka I thought it might of been useful to find out how he thinks he can bring it under control

I was not having a go at you for posting Tina so please do not think I was. I also get such things sent to me, and more besides - some of which are "interesting" but have nothing to do with dogs of the canine sort! And I know that you posted it in all good faith thinking it might be of interest.

The problem is that every so often someone comes up with a "special diet" or other ideas - some of which they swear will cure the incurable curse that is epilepsy. And as you yourself know only too well, there is no cure for it, and unfortunately for many epileptic patients, human, canine or whatever, there is no guaranteed control due to the nature of The Monster. So my hackles tend to rise when I come across such things.

Ram always says that his epilepsy is under control "for the moment" due to his medication - as he knows full well that The Monster can strike him any moment. I do not know what medication he is on as I have not asked him nor would I ever do so.

An hour or so ago Pereg started showing signs of a possible Psychomotor seizure but I could see it in her eyes so straight away gave her 10mg Valium to ward it off. She does not often have Psychomotor seizures and shows no warning signs before she goes into a full-blown Grand Mal.

It would be wonderful if I could get her epilepsy under control but I cannot. It was just luck that that I noticed today that she had started to get a bit "off" for want of a better word - looked at her and could see confusion in her eyes and the beginnings of something not being right.

But tranquilising her with Valium is not something I do very often - but when it is necessary and I know that it is necessary, I will do so rather than let it get any further.

Anyhow - all and every article that talks about curing the incurable or controlling the uncontrollable, just make me wonder if whoever wrote it actually lived with The Monster - and as I am sure you well know, it is not called The Monster for nothing.

(((hugs))) xx

Its ok Malka I understand xx

Tina I know you understand, Bless you, and you know that I did not mean to - ach - O cannot remember the word - disregard??? disrespect??? your post.

I am just so very much on seizure watch at the moment that purported "helps" sort of get up my nose at the moment.

Not you Tina my friend - and you were not to know how I react to such things. I just want my Pereg to go another few days seizure-free before The Monster hits her again.

I just love her so very very much.

And from out of nowhere Pereg had a full blown Grand Mal seizure in the night. Maybe 2am or 2.30am - she woke me and asked to go out so came into the salon and while I had my back to her, unhooking her tether before clipping it on to her harness CRASH she was down in the throes of the seizure.

And I cannot bear to watch her now when she has a seizure - the rictus and everything and knowing that there is nothing I can do but pray that she comes out of this one.

I guess I should have expected it - I mean she was on what, Day 13? And she had shown the signs of a possible Psychomotor seizure on Thursday.

But Pereg, oh my beloved girl - it destroys me to see you have these bad seizures.

Poor pereg and you Malka.be brave for your girl, I guess you feel so helpless and that makes it worse.

So sorry that this has happened again - I'm sure the stress you are under is not helping either of you.
Recover quickly little Pereg, and see if you can manage to go for a little longer next time. (Tickles ears).

It might sound naive,but are dogs born epileptic or can it happen later in years?

Where do you want me to start?

Some dogs, some breeds, have epilepsy in their genes. And maybe it will turn up or maybe it will not.

Some dogs, like Pereg - a mutt of know known origin, has Idiopathic Epilepsy - epilepsy of no known origin. We think, that is her Vet and I, that maybe it was somewhere in her background and it was an attack from a stray dog that brought it on.

But we do not know and there must have been epilepsy somewhere in her background for it to have appeared.

We do not know because the one certainty of canine epilepsy is the uncertainty of it. .

There is also secondary epilepsy caused by a brain tumour or brain damage due to trauma. which apears in older dogs.

But apart from genetic - like Linda [Lucky Star] and Rose [Brandikins] who both were Utonagan and both related in some way , it brings us back to the only uncertainty about canine epilepsy is the uncertainty..

Because it is not known
,

Oh right,very much a grey area then.thanks Malka.