New Member Introductions

Discussion in 'Your Introductions' started by Liz Burrell, Mar 17, 2024.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Liz Burrell

    Liz Burrell New Member

    Likes Received:
    0
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Liz

    New Member

    Hi everyone, my name is Liz and I have a 9 month old male Bernese Mountain Dog. I wonder can anyone recommend a harness suitable for his size which stops pulling.
  2. Registered users won't see this advert. Sign up for free!

  3. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

    Likes Received:
    5,004
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Carole
    Hi Liz, I'm not a fan of using mechanical means to train puppies. Have you thought of signing up for a puppy training course? The Kennel Club Good Citizen Dog course is a good one which only uses positive methods of handling. You should be able to find a club in your area on the KC website.
  4. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

    Likes Received:
    1,093
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Toed
    CaroleC likes this.
    I agree with @CaroleC. The "no pull" harnesses put pressure in places that can cause damage to skeletal/muscular growth. And, as with most mechanical training tools, these harnesses don't actually teach them not to pull, they just teach them to "suffer through the discomfort".

    Here is a good video of how to positively teach your puppy to stop pulling:
  5. Lifew/dogs

    Lifew/dogs New Member

    Likes Received:
    9
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    lonnie
    Are you suggesting putting a collar around the delicate necks of dogs is preferable? I agree harnesses teach big dogs to pull, retractable leashes are dangerous for everyone, dogs, people walking by and dog owners. NOT RECOMMENDED.
    There isn't ONE simple solution for what to walk a dog with and anyone recommending ONE collar for every dog doesn't see the big picture.
    Some dogs, like shepherds, are ok with choke collars, prong collars or flat collars, the smaller the dog the more likely a harness is preferred; less damage to delicate little necks. I would only put a flat or non-choke collar on a puppy. If you stop walking or turn around while walking because the dog pulls you can train it not to that way. Pulling means the dog wants to go forward, stopping and turning around or having the dog sit or down prevents what the dog wants. Say 'no pull' ONE time and do any of the above to stop pulling. Try not to use props like special collars to stop pulling BUT if a dog can put you in danger there is nothing wrong using a prong collar but watch videos to learn how.
  6. Lifew/dogs

    Lifew/dogs New Member

    Likes Received:
    9
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    lonnie
    2x post deleted
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2024
  7. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

    Likes Received:
    1,093
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Toed
    CaroleC likes this.
    No one said not to use a harness. What we are saying is that harnesses specifically designed as "no pull" often put pressure on the dog's body to discourage pulling - that pressure:
    1. Can cause skeletal/muscular damage in growing puppies; and
    2. Creates a constant feeling of discomfort/pain to the dog that desensitizes them.

    The latter defeats your training efforts because instead of teaching the dog to not pull, you actually teach them to ignore the discomfort of pulling so they continue to do so.

    The best way to teach a dog not to pull is by using positive reinforcement. Reward them for not pulling. Turning in the opposite direction and sitting can help, but it depends on the dog - with many dogs doing those things can cause frustration rather than obedience.

    As for prong collars, there is NO reason to ever use such a tool. If you properly train your dog not to pull, then a prong collar is simply unnecessary. If you expect the collar to stop the dog from pulling then you end up with a dog who is constantly in discomfort/pain and just learns to ignore it.

    Whether you use a collar or harness is a personal choice. For small dogs, harnesses are preferred because they don't put pressure on a small vulnernable neck. In the OP's case, she has a bernese mix - a very big dog.

    Personally, I use martingale collars. I size them so that when attached to the leash, the dog cannot pull out of the leash but not so tight that the dog is choked. They work well for dogs with smaller necks than heads. For bull terriers, etc, I find harnesses provide better safety (they won't pull out of them) over collars. I'm not a fan of flat collars simply because if you size them to prevent the dog from pulling out of the collar while training loose lead walking, they are too tight to be safe to wear the rest of the time; and if you size them to wear the rest of the time, they are too loose to wear when training loose lead walking.

    I prefer collars to harnesses because mine wear their collars with ID tags 24/7 - and I can just attach the leashes and go instead of having to get two dogs into their harnesses and attach the leashes. But I have nothing against harnesses as long as they are not the "no pull" type that puts pressure on the dog if they do pull.
  8. Chris B

    Chris B Member

    Likes Received:
    1,655
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Chris
    CaroleC and Toedtoes like this.
    I have taught all my dogs with a retractable lead. They soon learn the difference of when they have to walk nicely when it's shortened and when they are free to roam more freely

    Like all things, it's who is controlling the tool that makes the difference
  9. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

    Likes Received:
    1,093
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Toed
    Curious. Did you teach them from Day 1 with a retractable lead or did you use a standard lead for training and then incorporate the retractable?

    In my experience, that makes a big difference. I find it very difficult to TEACH loose leash walking on a retractable lead. But, if you have a dog who IS loose leash trained, the retractable lead shouldn't create a problem.

    I think it also depends on the individual dog and human as well as where you walk.

    On a nature walk with few people/dogs around, I could easily walk Tornado-dog on a retractable lead. He's a pretty easy walker and I can redirect him easily.

    A friend who often walks him would find it very difficult because she isn't focused on him and the surroundings. So she often doesn't see a distraction until it's right upon them. The retractable lead is just bulky and awkward in that situation.

    With Cat-dog, I would never use a retractable lead because of her dog fear. If she even hears a dog bark in the distance she goes into high stress mode. With a standard lead, I can easily create a physical connection by bringing her in hand over hand. With the retractable, that doesn't work. We lose that connection of me being in control and protecting her.

    My recommended lead is a standard 6ft leather lead with a "traffic handle" close to the dog end. When walking both dogs together, I add two "leash extenders" to create a double leash. I like that better than a standard double leash because I can separate the dogs if needed without having to carry an extra leash.

    I did recently get new extenders and they are the nylon bungie style. I'm rather liking them especially for my current pair. Again, with Cat-dog's dog fear, she doesn't enjoy walks. She's in stress mode. So while my prior two dogs would lead each other from one scent to the next, with these two, Tornado-dog is going from scent to scent and Cat-dog is looking for an escape route if a dog appears. For her, the walk is a necessary evil to get from one safe place to another safe place.
  10. Lifew/dogs

    Lifew/dogs New Member

    Likes Received:
    9
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    lonnie
    I've seen the horrific damage a retractable leash can do to fingers.If you get your dog's leash wrapped around another dog's leash and a fight starts good luck saving the smaller dog. Friends don't let friends use retractable leashes.
    There is no excuse for using a retractable leash. Danger. Much danger.
    https://dependondogs.com/blog/retractable-leash-dangers-what-you-need-to-know/
    https://www.petful.com/pet-health/retractable-leashes-dangerous/
    https://humanesocietyhbg.org/2020/12/01/the-problem-with-retractable-leashes/
  11. Lifew/dogs

    Lifew/dogs New Member

    Likes Received:
    9
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    lonnie
    "As for prong collars, there is NO reason to ever use such a tool. If you properly train your dog not to pull, then a prong collar is simply unnecessary. If you expect the collar to stop the dog from pulling then you end up with a dog who is constantly in discomfort/pain and just learns to ignore it."

    Have you ever owned a dog over 75 lbs? Because the fastest way to get killed is for one to pull you onto a busy street. You will die for sure with the dog.
    Take a prong collar and wrap it around your wrist tell me how that can hurt a dog. IT CANNOT. IT does not. I have tried haltie collars which get ripped off in a fight, or spins the dog around in a very harsh way or fall off. I've tried flat collars and if a dog has EVER one time slipped out of one they will again. I've used choke collars mostly in OB classes as instructed by the teacher and I also have walked dogs in them. I recommend them over most other collars but if you have a puller the prong is best, they still pull but not quite as strongly.
    Like I said above there is not ONE answer for every person or every dog. That's why there are a variety of collars and leashes. Your choice may determine whether you both live or die.
  12. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

    Likes Received:
    5,004
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Carole
    Toedtoes likes this.
    Over here you would not find a qualified trainer who allowed you to use a check chain. You do see the fine extra-long ones in the show ring but that is only because it can be slid back to show the line from neck into shoulder, not something that is used in daily life. I have never witnessed anyone using a prong collar. I suspect that they would have to hide it under a bandana! You can find photos online showing dogs with necks pierced by prong collars. If it causes damage, it is cruel IMO.
    I only use a Halti headcollar in combination, using a double ended lead connected to either a harness or a collar, and used like a double bridle on a horse. My favourite type of collar for most general purposes is a well-fitted half check, but I would only use a supple, flat-leather collar on a puppy under 6 months.
    I wouldn't use a harness unless I was tracking. Putting on the harness is a sign which tells the dog what he is expected to do, so it is only used for that purpose.
    For the pet owner, a harness can be useful in protecting the structures in the throat, and the cervical spine. The downside is that they often encourage pulling, and in extreme cases, the dog's front widens and the shoulder muscles become overbuilt. Too great a load on the forehand is usually at the expense of what should be the propelling musculature of the hind legs.
  13. Lifew/dogs

    Lifew/dogs New Member

    Likes Received:
    9
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    lonnie
  14. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

    Likes Received:
    1,093
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Toed
    Yes, the majority of dogs I have owned have been 85lbs+ and I repeat: there is NO reason to EVER use a prong collar on a dog.

    If your 75lb+ dog is pulling you into a busy street, then you have quite simply FAILED to train your dog. Putting a prong collar on an untrained dog simply desensitizes the dog to the pain - the dog will continue to pull. In the 70s and 80s when prong collars were at the height of popularity, you saw it every day - a dog on a prong collar dragging its handler along while the prongs dug into the neck. The collar did NOT stop the pulling. The collar DID cause damage to the dog's neck. The collar was ineffectual and dangerous.

    As for "put the collar around your wrist", I suggest this: put the prong collar around your neck and let someone else jerk it for you while they believe it's attached to a 100lb dog. Then tell me it doesn't hurt.

    As for your link, that is a blog written by a father-son team with no legitimate studies to back up their claim. In addition, they have no personal formal education backing up their claims. Not a ringing endorsement.

    I offer this article from the RSPCA: https://kb.rspca.org.au/knowledge-base/are-pronged-collars-harmful-to-my-dog/

    Note the citing of 16 studies backing up their claims. I highly recommend you obtain copies of those studies and read them in full for a better understanding of the damage prong collars and other aversive methods and tools can do to your dog.

    I will also share this article: https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/t...ogs-and-military-dogs-using-positive-methods/
  15. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

    Likes Received:
    1,093
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Toed
    CaroleC likes this.
    I am going to remind you again of the ONE rule on this forum: Do Not Be Contemptible

    Everyone on this forum is able to have a discussion without insulting or disparaging the other posters. Everyone is able to limit their discussion to the actual topic without belittling the other poster. You have repeatedly made disparaging, belittling and insulting comments against me and now against @CaroleC. If you cannot refrain from doing so, I will report you for trolling behavior.

    Everyone is allowed their opinion. If you provide a recommendation based on your opinion to posters seeking advice, you can expect other posters to disagree with your opinion and to speak up and offer a dissenting opinion. That is part of being on a forum.

    However, when you make comments about other posters having the "inability to read", sarcastic comments like the one quoted above (which also completely misrepresents what was actually posted), etc, you are no longer discussing the topic. You are being contemptible.

    In the week you have been here, you have derailed 2 threads with your attitude. If this continues, I will report you for trolling.
  16. Chris B

    Chris B Member

    Likes Received:
    1,655
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Chris
    Toedtoes likes this.
    From day one the last two and they were the easiest to teach.

    Ted, my current dog, was taught on a retractable, but is now on a belt lead as he has to walk at the side of my mobility scooter so I need more freedom in my hands
  17. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

    Likes Received:
    5,004
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Carole
    Toedtoes likes this.
    @Lifew/dogs This topic received a thorough thrashing-out on Breedia in 2015. The thread appears at the top of the Doberman forum, as Ares is now a whole year old, and the photos show below appear in post #15 in the thread and is dated Dec 31 2015.
    This is an emotive topic, but these devices are more commonly found on your side of the pond than on ours. You won't easily locate a stockist of prong collars in the UK, and they were withdrawn by Amazon several years ago - at least they did so for the UK market, and this is forum is UK based, (though everyone is welcome of course). Though not actually illegal, they are strongly disapproved of and many people would like them to be banned.
    Re your comments about me handling large breeds, the first dog I handled in the show ring was a Doberman - I was helping out in show kennels when I was 14. In later life I had a boyfriend who showed and worked GSD's, and in later life a friend showed Bouviers in Breed and Working Trials. Through her I had a close association with her dogs and the breed club for several years. She only used buckled rolled leather collars for working and general purposes.
    In KC obedience your dog is only allowed to compete wearing a flat collar or a half-check, though the rules are slightly different for the various disciplines. For example, a Gundog would traditionally wear a slip for safety reasons. Does the AKC have similar rules regarding what a dog is allowed to wear in competition?

    Screenshot_20240323-211750.png
  18. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

    Likes Received:
    1,093
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Toed
    Thanks. I'm honestly impressed - I have always found retractable leash handles to be very awkward to hold on to. And most of the time, I still utilize the two handed leash holding - right hand holding the handle and left hand loosely holding the center of the leash in case I need to pull the dog in quickly.

    I normally recommend against retractable leashes only because I see the dogs too often pulling against the extended leash and the handler is incapable of bringing the dog back in to their side effectively.
  19. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

    Likes Received:
    1,093
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Toed
    CaroleC likes this.
    @CaroleC when I was doing competition, prong collars, harnesses, haltis, e-collars, etc, were not allowed in the ring under any circumstances. You were allowed flat, choke, or martingale. Martingale or choke collars have been the most consistently used. Flat collars were more often seen in advanced off-lead obedience competitions, and specialty competitions (agility, tracking, etc).

    As far as I know that has never changed. The basic understanding is that if you are competing, your dog should already be able to obey commands without corrections so using prong collars, e-collars, etc, in the ring is unnecessary AND that as your dog should be able to obey these commands whenever given, using a specific type of collar/harness during competition brings up the question on whether your dog is truly trained or just behaving in fear of punishment. Not allowing such tools removes that concern that a dog is only obeying commands for fear of immediate punishment/correction.

    When I started, only 6ft leather or nylon leads were allowed in obedience and most used leather. Now, it just has to be long enough to allow for a loose lead - which is somewhat subjective. In the conformation ring, most used a 2 to 4 ft thin lead as it was easier to fit into one hand and not distract the judge from the dog. The actual length was dependent upon the relative size between handler and dog.
  20. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

    Likes Received:
    5,004
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Carole
    Toedtoes likes this.
    No I wasn't imagining that anyone would use prong or e-collars in the ring. The last paragraph was meant to be asking just about choke collars. Are they still allowed to be used in AKC obedience tests, as they are not allowed over here?
  21. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

    Likes Received:
    5,004
    Gender:
    Female
    Name:
    Carole
    Toedtoes likes this.
    Oh dear - we have strayed rather a long way off topic.
    Does anyone know how to split the thread?
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page