Unscrupulous Breeders General Chat

Discussion in 'General Dog Chat' started by who owns who, Apr 29, 2022.

  1. who owns who

    who owns who Member

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    Unscrupulous Breeders

    I wish my friend had contacted me before she got her heart set on a new puppy. She called me on her way to pick it up. She had to put her dog to sleep last Wednesday, a Rottweiler/pit-bull mix that she had gotten from a rescue, and picked up this puppy 6 days later. She had a big dog sized hole in her heart that needed filling, The new puppy is a Rottweiler. I should have seen the red flags. She told them $1500 was too much for her and they asked what she could afford. They said the puppy was the last female from the litter, and she could have it for $950 if she picked it up that day. So she drove 2 hours to pick her up. I believe the puppy is 9 weeks old.

    The next day she took her to the Vets. Vet said the puppy has a bad overbite and that this could lead to problems in the future, which might require a specialized Vet, and could run into $1000’s of dollars. The puppy teeth are already causing small punctures in the gums. Vet suggested returning the puppy. My friend is keeping her. In the contract it states if a congenital issue comes up in the first 2 years that they will replace the dog, with a dog of similar or lesser value. She’s afraid if she returned the dog it would wind up in a shelter or worse. One option for dealing with it would be to have the teeth ground down.

    When she texted the breeder, she was told that the mother also has the same issue. These are AKC dogs, but not a certified AKC breeder. They even told my friend she could breed the puppy if she chose. From my understanding of how to choose a dog to breed, you want a dog with no defects, and an overbite would be considered a defect. I doubt they screened for hip dysphasia or anything else. I looked at their website and it doesn’t say anything about the parents being screened.

    To make matters worse, they breed multiple types of dogs. Golden retrievers, Rottweilers, Saint Bernards, and Doodles. It’s a puppy mill, they are just out to make money. They aren’t trying to uphold breed standards or improve the breed, otherwise they wouldn’t knowingly breed a dog with a pronounced overbite. They claim all the dogs are in their house.....

    They took advantage of someone who had just lost a beloved pet, and dumped a dog on her that they must have known had an issue, why else would they discount the dogs price. On their site it looked like they were asking $2000, but told my friend $1500, and then let her have the dog for $950.

    The contract says she could have another dog later, but these people know that most people fall in love with a puppy very quickly and aren’t going to want to return it and wait 6-12 months for a replacement. They prey on people’s vulnerability, IMO. I’ve looked at the contract and at their website, and I don’t think there’s much she can do, and she’s going to keep the dog and spend what she has to in order to give her the best life possible. She’s leading with her heart and not her head, and I understand this.

    How do we stop places like this? Now that I’ve educated my friend, she knows what to watch out for in the future, although I don’t know if she would have made a different choice anyhow. She’s a special education teacher and she has a big heart. She took the puppy home and feels responsible for her now
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  3. who owns who

    who owns who Member

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    Toedtoes likes this.
    2ED7FFB0-0744-431B-85BD-D526EC13C17A.jpeg 156448F1-D7C5-417B-A587-0862E02F769A.jpeg

    Her name is River
  4. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    River is adorable. Poor thing had no chance with a crappy breeder like that.

    One thing I'd be concerned about contract-wise is that they will exchange her for another puppy of similar value. That's going to mean the $950 value, not the initial $1500 value, let alone the online stated $2000 value.

    It's really difficult to stop these bad breeders. They find loopholes in whatever laws are enacted. The "easy" money keeps encouraging them, and too many people rush into getting a puppy and don't ask for help in finding a good breeder beforehand. Instead, they get the puppy and then spend far more time and energy dealing with the puppy's health and temperamental issues and posting on forums like this to warn others. Unfortunately, the next family doesn't research, so they don't see these posts until they have made the same mistakes.

    To me, part of the problem is that dogs are still considered property. Unless there is extreme abuse or neglect (such as dog fighting or a dog left without clean water for weeks, etc), people can treat their dogs any way they want. And that includes breeding them carelessly.

    Something has to change with that. Some countries and jurisdictions are legally defining dogs as "sentient beings". This doesn't mean that they cannot be bred and sold, etc, but it makes it easier to include the animal's emotional well being when investigating abuse and neglect cases. It would also make it easier to establish legal regulations regarding breeding programs AND the ability to shut down breeders who violate those regulations.
  5. who owns who

    who owns who Member

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    My friend isn’t giving the puppy back, she feels like it’s up to her to provide for this dog now. I respect her for this.

    I think I’m going to start with a call to my state representatives, and see if they’ve thought about this issue, at all. I don’t know what legislation would look like, how many would support it, and I don’t know what sort of laws I would want or support, but seems like something needs to be done.

    I mean these foolish, greedy breeders were knowingly breeding a dog that would not have passed the AKC board as a dog worthy of producing off spring. When my brother was thinking of having a litter of pups from his Akita, she had X-rays, hips, patellas, eye exam. Maybe other stuff, I don’t remember, and these results were examined by a board of vets who said, based on what my brother provided, she was a good specimen, and didn’t have any obvious defects that she might pass on. That’s what a responsible breeder does. He wasn’t really a breeder, but this dog did have two litters, his children got to be part of watching her give birth and socializing the puppies. Most of the puppies went to friends and friends of friends. He wasn’t charging a lot, but trying to break even on the stud fees, vet expenses etc. I’m not sure if he did or not, but money wasn’t the motivation
  6. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    And that's the main problem. Good breeders aren't looking to make money, they are interested in breeding the best of the breed.

    Unscrupulous breeders are ONLY concerned with making money. And that means they don't do screening that cost money, don't do regular vet visits that cost money, don't not breed a genetically inferior dog that costs money, etc.

    And they don't care that the puppies get sick or have health issues as long as they can still sell it.

    If this puppy hadn't sold, she be being bred within the year.

    I'm glad your friend is keeping her. She shouldn't have to suffer through a bad home because of these idiots.
  7. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    How sad, and this does sound like a commercial breeder - a polite term for a puppy farm. However, I would just like to offer a glimmer of hope. The lower jaw of a dog usually continues to grow for longer than the top one. I have seen several puppies with perfect mouths who became undershot when the second teeth came through. Unless the gap is huge, it is possible that it could become a much closer fit by six - eight months. Yes, you do sometimes see worrying indents in the gum tissue, but as long as there is no actual rawness, I wouldn't bother having the tooth points ground down - which would mean having a GA. Unfortunately, it isn't feasible to remove baby canine teeth completely, as they have long roots until the calcium has been absorbed, which allows them to be shed.
    River does have a long nose, but looks to be a calm, sweet natured puppy.
    Last edited: Apr 29, 2022
  8. Chris B

    Chris B Member

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    It's disgusting what these so called breeders are allowed to get away with, but, like your friend, there is no way I could return River. She is adorable
  9. mjfromga

    mjfromga Member

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    You cannot stop these breeders because there are no laws against what they're doing. And at this time - governments have much bigger fish to fry than a puppy with an overbite. I wouldn't expect any letters or campaigns about this to receive even the smallest bit of attention.
  10. who owns who

    who owns who Member

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    Malka and Toedtoes like this.
    That’s exactly the problem, there’s no laws currently on the books about standards for breeding dogs. It’s not about the specific dog my friend got, who has an overbite, because she was bred from a dog that the breeders knew had an overbite.

    Certainly without any focus being brought to any issue, nothing will happen. But if enough people contact their representatives and express their concerns, they might get someone’s attention. All politicians work for their constituents, although sometimes they need to be reminded. Nothing will happen if nobody says anything. Is it the most important issue, no. But all sorts of laws and regulations get voted on, big and small.

    It takes people making others aware it’s an issue. Rolling over and doing nothing is not going to bring awareness to any given issue. I don’t know about where you live, but here, anytime I’ve contacted the office of a representative, either in my county, or on the state level, I’ve gotten a call back from someone in their office. I’ve gotten assistance on a few different things. One thing for sure, making no effort will guarantee nothing happens.

    Tonight I received a text from someone running for the state assembly in my district, telling me a few of the things he’s helped accomplish, and asking if he could count on my vote. I responded with I don’t know, and asked what he thought about creating some guidelines/regulations/laws to stop puppy mills. Limiting the amount of breeds one breeder can breed, requiring the dogs all pass breed appropriate health standards, how often a dog can be bred, how many dogs they can own to breed. I just replied, so I’ve no idea if I’ll get a response. But not asking, I definitely won’t get a response
  11. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    In England the fight against puppy farming really caught public attention after the rescue of a sweet but very abused farmed Cavalier called Lucy. The campaign promoting Lucy's Law coupled with the image of this vulnerable little dog was taken up by the animal cruelty charities, and the dog press. A petition to the Government was launched, and quickly gained the 100,000 signatures which meant that it had to be debated in Parliament. Government support led to legislation in 2020, Scotland, and then Wales followed in 2021. Poor Lucy didn't live to see her Act pass into law. Despite receiving the best of care she died in 2016.
    Despite this Act putting the worst cases out of business, puppy farms do still exist. Some cleaned up their act and applied for a licence, but there are always some that continue undercover - or deal in smuggled imports. However, all serious breeders - 3 or more litters is a guide - are now inspected and licenced, which must have contributed to the increase in puppy prices.
    There seems to be no way of controlling backstreet breeding, and even with the licenced breeders, it is hard to see how legislation could prevent someone from mating Dog A to Bitch B. When we search for a healthy puppy, we still need to rely on the reputation of a caring and well-intentioned breeder.
  12. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    Here in the states, the government has enacted laws to curtail the selling of puppy mill puppies. There are now laws preventing pet stores from selling puppies unless they come from shelters, etc. Big pet store corporations like Petco and Petsmart take that a step further and loan their facilities out to rescues and shelters and do not profit on the adopted animals.

    However, this has led to the puppy mills to sell direct to the consumer via the internet and "brokers".

    Here in my county, there is a law that requires you to get a kennel license if you have more that 5 dogs on your property. Most backyard breeders ignore this rule knowing there aren't enough animal control staff to enforce the law. I know of one doodle breeder who got around this law by "leasing" out their breeding stock. They let you pay them (at a lower price than for buying a puppy) to keep their dogs in your home, but they retained all breeding rights and you were required to bring the dog to breed whenever asked. Folks who leased the females kept the puppies in their homes until they were sold. In this case, the breeder did pay for all vet bills, testing, etc.

    Then there is the argument of "what is a puppy mill". I have seen it on other dog forums where folks fight new laws because they fear there is no way to discern between a good breeder and a bad breeder.

    For me, I would like to see the following established in law:

    1. No puppy or dog can be sold unless both parents have been tested for genetically inherited diseases per established guidelines and the results are clean PRIOR to insemination.

    2. No puppy or dog can be sold unless it has been evaluated by a vet and has been vaccinated according to established guidelines.
    2a. The buyer must be provided with a copy of the evaluation PRIOR to purchase.
    2b. Any and all deposits must be refunded in full if the evaluation is negative.

    3. Anyone selling puppies or dogs must ensure proper medical care, including vaccionations, according to established standards to ALL dogs in their possession AND/OR in their breeding program (whether in their possession or not).

    4. Anyone selling puppies or dogs must ensure fresh clean water daily to ALL dogs in their possession AND/OR in their breeding program (whether in their physical possession or not).

    5. Anyone selling puppies or dogs must ensure proper nutrition, according to established veterinary standards, daily to ALL dogs in their possession AND/OR in their breeding program (whether in their physical possession or not).

    6. Anyone selling puppies or dogs must provide proper shelter to ALL dogs in their possession AND/OR in their breeding program (whether in their physical possession or not).
    6a. Proper shelter must include heat and/or air conditioning to guarantee temperatures between 68 and 80 degrees at all times.
    6b. Proper shelter cannot be less than X square feet per length of dog in inches from tip of nose to tip of tail.* This requirement may be excepted on a temporary basis on written orders by a vet due to medical neccessity.
    6c. Proper shelter must have a solid floor surface.

    7. Anyone selling puppies or dogs must ensure proper exercise according to established standards to ALL dogs in their possession AND/OR in their breeding program (whether in their possession or not).

    8. Anyone selling puppies or dogs must ensure proper handling by humans and socialization according to established standards to ALL dogs in their possession AND/OR in their breeding program (whether in their possession or not).

    9. All facilities where dogs are kept, exercised, inseminated, examined, fed, watered, medically treated, and (can't think of the right word, but where they potty and poop) MUST be cleaned daily to established standards.

    10. All facilities where food and medication is stored must be maintained to established health standards.

    11. Anyone who breeds and/or sells a puppy or dog in violation of these requirements will have all animals removed from their possession/ownership, will be banned from possessing or owning any animal for a minimum of 5 years, AND will be required to pay a penalty fee of a minimum of $10,000 or spend a minimum of 2 years in jail.

    *The square feet requirement needs to be researched to ensure it is appropriate.

    I also think that only vets accredited by a certain entity should be accepted for the above.

    The penalties include all animals because someone who will do this with dogs will do this with other animals - by removing and banning them from having any animal, that is stopped.
  13. who owns who

    who owns who Member

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    @Toedtoes, I don’t have time at the moment to make a lot of comments but I think this is a pretty good outline. You didn’t include anything about how many dogs an individual breeder could be breeding. I think this would be important
  14. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    Yes, you're right. That as well as how often a female dog should be bred and a male dog should be bred/harvested, should be in there as well.

    There are likely additional things I have missed.

    Perhaps we can develop a proposal here and submit it to several animal ethics experts, veterinarians, rescues, shelters and breeders, etc for feedback and then see if we can get a grass roots effort to put it into law. All it takes is one municipality to enact it for it to become a gold standard.
  15. who owns who

    who owns who Member

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    Malka and CaroleC like this.
    I received a text response to my question. “I support creating guidelines to stop puppy mills. We need to have standards and make sure dogs are being treated well”.

    I’d say it’s likely the text I received is from someone in this persons campaign, but still encouraging that I got a response.
  16. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    Great. So let's be proactive and get those standards started. Otherwise, it all ends up in the same place "we agree it needs to be done, but we don't want to do the work".
  17. mjfromga

    mjfromga Member

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    I just care about people so much more than dogs. There is so much harm being done to people and so many things that could help people that I just can't focus my attention on dogs - and for the sake of humanity... I hope these government agencies feel the same way.

    Who has time to be worried about a dog with genetic problems when people are starving on the streets because we don't have enough programs and places to help them?

    I understand wanting to help dogs, and I understand this being a dog website... but I don't support letters and calls being made on the behalf of dogs BEFORE the same are made for people. Period.

    I understand that my opinion is of course unpopular here - but still.

    Minimum 2 years in jail or 10k fine for breeding some dogs? Get real! You don't serve a minimum of two years for injuring a human in many cases. Proper temperature between 68-80 at all times? What? Many, many HUMANS don't even get this luxury!

    All of this further accentuating my point that dog welfare should not be prioritized over human welfare!! I find this to be just way overkill. Must be nice to live in a bubble where dogs are royalty
    Last edited: May 13, 2022
  18. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    This is NOT about prioritizing one over the other. It is simply addressing a specific need.

    No matter what "cause" you identify as Number 1, there will be another person who prioritizes that cause lower down. In addition, no one person can tackle every cause out there.

    The answer to this is to focus YOUR time/money/energy on YOUR priorities. And let others focus THEIR time/money/energy on THEIR priorities.

    If posters on this forum have prioritized this issue and want to be proactive to making advances, then we should all applaud them for doing so. Regardless of whether we as individuals see it as a priority.

    I will add that if the world stopped making advances to anything until world hunger is resolved, nothing would ever change for the better.
  19. mjfromga

    mjfromga Member

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    I will never just calmly and silently be okay with people prioritizing dogs over humans. This site has always been riddled with people who value dogs as our equal or seemingly even higher. People very rarely place threads in the off section trying to help the masses of humans in need. No surprise there, though.

    World hunger was just ONE issue. There are countless. Disease. Social and mental health help. Special needs children and adult help. Military and war relief efforts etc. Hunger is only one of the myriad of problems humans need to help each other with. Not that world hunger by itself isn't way more important than dogs - because it is. PERIOD.

    Breeding dogs that may or may not have genetic problems literally isn't important at all in the scope of the world. REAL animal abuse that I see daily (no water, chained to trees, broken dog houses, never any human interaction, starvation etc) is even more important than some poorly bred mutts. This doesn't even seem like a serious topic to me even though I know it is.

    As for the temperature being a constant 68-80. Are you serious? Tons of humans don't get to enjoy that. They can't afford it. So why should dogs deserve it? They're dogs. They do better in varying temperatures than we do. I know of people who will feed a starving dog before they feed a starving human. They try and defend or save the lives of dogs who have mauled and hurt or killed humans . It's disgusting.

    With that said - I'll leave this thread and this site to what it is. Have a great day.
    Last edited: May 14, 2022
  20. Toedtoes

    Toedtoes Member

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    I'm sorry that our discussion upsets you.

    Personally, I will never just calmly and silently be okay with people ignoring the blight of animals - whether that be careless breeding or anything else.

    Yes, many people consider their pets AS IMPORTANT as any other living being in their care - whether that be a child or an ailing parent, etc.

    But I have NEVER heard anyone say "people don't matter" or "who cares about the people, we need to help the animals". Take from that what you may.

    One last thought: you have no idea if anyone on this board is also actively involved with human-based causes, so to assume that we are all putting dogs above people is not just inaccurate, but insulting.
    Last edited: May 14, 2022
  21. who owns who

    who owns who Member

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    @mjfromga, Are you doing anything actively about the issues that concern you? Or are you just bitching and moaning and whining (want some cheese with your whine?)

    Who the £¥#k are you to tell me what I should be concerned about. I do care deeply about many things. A few weeks ago I got pissed off at some breeders who are breeding dogs that shouldn’t be bred because of genetic conditions. If I want to try and gain some traction to try and get this issue in front of some politicians, who are you to tell me that it’s not as important as something else.

    Why can’t homelessness and animal welfare both be addressed.

    If you really want to get into a discussion (which I don’t think you really want), well for starters, there is a portion of people and politicians who think social programs that help underserved communities are handouts. Vote those people out!!

    I personally am involved in supporting people with substance abuse issues in staying sober, through a program I’m involved in. I’m planning on making this my career for the foreseeable future, perhaps the rest of my working life. I can personally only split my attention so many different ways.

    What I’m trying to understand is how it harms you if I, or others, try to work on something to help the welfare of animals. Is it harming you or anyone else?

    Oh, and bye the way, government agencies deal with a multitude of different issues. Not just one thing.

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