You Don't Know the Challenge Posting This Controversial

Discussion in 'General Dog Chat' started by lovemybull, Feb 12, 2015.

  1. lovemybull

    lovemybull Member

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    6JRT's, Azz and Malka like this.

    You Don't Know the Challenge Posting This

    I was posting this onto an AARP thread dealing with the big bad pit bull question. Maybe because I edited it or included pictures? Maybe there's a moderator reading it who sees someone sympathetic to demon dogs? I dunno, finally got it posted but it took a bunch of re-submits...

    Okay cat, I applaud you...to a point. I admit I opened this thread with hackles raised. My own Dad will often site how many Judge Judy cases he's seen that week with pit bulls eating neighbors and biting owners with abandon. I am a bully advocate. The breed is misunderstood and often mistaken for any number of other breeds and mixes.
    The fact that many people not even law enforcement can spot identify a breed added to the fact that "pit bull" is often used as shorthand in new stories for " scary butt dog that attacked a human and now we can't be bothered to verify the breed". Actually if you investigate into the history of the bull breeds there is not actually a breed called Pit Bull. The dogs bred originally in England to bait bulls don't even exist anymore. In America there were canines bred carefully to fight cocks and other dogs.
    These breeders of the 1800's weren't white trash or gang bangers and they created long lines of prized fighting dogs. The dogs used included everything from English bulldogs to Mastiffs and mixes in between. A little known fact...across the board besides being willing to fight on command these dogs were bred to be completely human submissive. That is even if they were critically injured, even in the heat of battle, they had to be completely submissive to human handlers. A dog labeled a man hater wouldn't live long enough to reproduce.
    So you had a dog that was muscular, fast and powerful, intelligent and people pleasing. The problems began when the white trash and gang bangers took on ownership and tried to torture these magnificent animals into being watchdogs and status symbols. As I said there isn't actually such a breed as "pit bull". There are bull terriers, English bull dogs, Staffordshires, American bull dogs, American Staffordshires and also dogs like the Dogo Argentino...looks like a bull dog but a totally different breed completely. One clue-the bully breeds are generally between 40-60 pounds. If someone claims a 150lb "pit bull"...that's not even a bull breed, that's perhaps a Dogo or Mastiff.
    I have a female American Staffordshire and a male American bull dog. I'm the first to say they are not for everyone. The bully breeds need an experienced, physically fit and emotionally balanced owner. Certainly the wrong breed for homes with young children or fragile family members. Even the happiest bully is a powerful dog. You can't be a milquetoast nor can you be brutal. The ideal bully owner has the confidence to carefully train and socialize their dog and err on the side of caution around strange humans and other animals.
    They need a secure backyard with high enclosed fence and ideally need an hour or more of brisk exercise a day. But the rewards of being a loving responsible bully owner means having a dog that will guard you with it's life, yet at home they love nothing better than folding themselves into your lap or at least as close to it's loved ones as is physically possible. Some are aggressive towards other animals, my dogs sleep with my daughter and several cats as well. Like any breed of dog they aren't for everyone but with the right owners they are ideal. And I totally agree there has to be more spay/neuter programs as well has funding for law enforcement to stamp out backyard breeding.
    Far too many bully breeds die because of the sheer number in public shelters and the public's fear of the stereotype...boxy head, big chest, little bitty legs...that dogs a killer let's get a Golden...if you research it deep enough you realize how important it is to change public perception of a way misunderstood breed.
    My Sophie-afraid of strangers, only dangerous towards squirrels
    [​IMG]
    Callie, the ladie's man, loves human females and our house cats
    [​IMG]
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  3. Malka

    Malka Member

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    Sophie

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    Callie

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  4. Bulldogs4Life

    Bulldogs4Life Member

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    What is the back story people downing Pits in that forum?
    Unless you post something in violation of their TOC it'd be really unfair of they didn't allow it.
    That said I think it's great to defend them but cant agree with everything.

    This is all too true. I've had other breeds mistaken for Pits and seen it happen to numerous people. The media is the worse they will mis report as a Pit Bull even if it's another breed and it doesn't have to be a bull breed even!

    There certainly is a breed known as the Pit Bull. The American Pit Bull Terrier. Saying otherwise is the same as saying there is no such breed as called Lab or Rott. It is just for short of the official name. Some will call their American Staffordshire Terrier the same as they are genetically the same but such a different type. Most just say Am Staff.

    When and why were dogs bred to fight cocks? I know people fight cocks against other cocks. Not heard of it with dogs & seems they'd easily kill them. I've heard of ratting though.
    If someone has an English Bulldog, Mastiff & ect mix it sounds more like they have an American Bully or some type of bandog creation. That's NOT a Pit Bull. If you check out some APBT history you will see this is not true. While some dogs of other breeds might have got thrown in a spot here & there that's no different then any other breed including the closed off AKC breeds.
    Breeding to all these other breeds would reduce gameness and defeat the purpose. Even if that were not the case people don't usually simply breed all over the place to other breeds willy nilly since they have a pure bred dog.
    I don't know what research you've done but my dogs pedigrees go back to English & Irish imports in the 1800's as well as dogs already established here. Those are not English Bulldog or English Mastiff. Weren't Pit Bulls here BEFORE Mastiffs?

    (They don't fight on command)
    I agree to a degree. I wouldn't call it being bred to be people submissive. It goes with the territory that a breed bred for the pit is going to have to be handled and attended to. Dogs bred for combat against other dogs only need a will to fight other dogs not man. It is like a bi product of their breeding. There are non fighting breeds similar Labs are generally friendly to humans, hounds allow attention to wounds without reaction from fear/pain.
    Man aggression & defense drive isn't needed so wasn't bred for.
    They are called man biters or eaters and they did exist. Bullyson was a biter. Zebo was total man eater I believe him a highly unstable dog!

    As I aid there is actually a breed known as the Pit Bull. It's interesting you left out the American Pit Bull Terrier I find that odd.
    American Staffordshire Terrier are a split off "breed" of the APBT. The Staffordshire Bull Terrier is closely related. American Bulldogs can also have some relation as Pit Bulls were bred into some AB lines.
    People might beg to differ in Dogo considering the breed make up but I suppose that's not important.
    Am Staff are generally over 40lbs. I see few classic staff close to Pit Bull size but most are more like 60-80lbs.
    American Bulldogs are regularly 80lbs or more including over 100lbs. So what you said doesn't make sense. Some are smaller depending on lines but they are a large breed.

    I (and probably most owners) beg to differ. I spent childhood days dragging around & playing with an APBT. My dogs generally love kids.
    [​IMG]
    My youngest, who is 2, can't get enough of my dogs. The one pictured with her is 9yrs old so has been there for all my kids. The dog I spent my time with as a kid was her great grandad/great great grand dad.
    All my older dogs have been through the kids and younger ones too of course. Before I had kids I had kid brother and numerous other kids around my dogs as kids seem to flock to them.
    Looking at the images your female doesn't look like an Am Staff, even one with natural ears? She looks like a Pit mix. The male looks like a Pit Bull. Maybe mix too but hard to tell just seeing his face, looks mostly Pit. While red nose is occasionally seen in America Bulldog it doesn't seem so often but mainly when in the last time anyone saw a high white breed like AB solid color? His muzzle length looks more like a Pit too.
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2015
  5. lovemybull

    lovemybull Member

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    Thank you, I totally welcome the clarifications. I have to tell you that ten years ago if you had told me I would have one dog never mind two or being able to argue their history one way or another...Sophie came to me on a whim, probably an AmStaff/Boxer mix and terrified of so very many things.

    By the time I got Callie I knew what I was getting into. And no I will not admit to AARP that it's taken me two years to get him less hostile to humans. He does lovely with the ladies and children he has infinite patience. But male humans solo are a real sore spot for him. But he does make his progress.

    Thank you for the picture! My youngest is special needs and her Dad has beginning Parkinson's. Callie accommodates both of them. Sophie is Mama's girl 100% but Callie is just the most amazing dog I've ever known. I used to be strictly a cat person but now I know I will always have a pup like my Callie. It's hard to tell in our picture but he looks really close to your dog...what a smile!
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2015
  6. LMost

    LMost Member

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    @Bulldogs4Life
    No the Dogo is not a Bully breed, though many claim it as one because of looks and build.
    No, first mastiff came over on the Mayflower, it became a recognize breed in believe 1885 by the AKC.
    The brindle coloring found in APBT and other bully breeds is from Mastiffs.

    Temperament can be bred for or out of a breed.
    Mastiff are part of the original Dogs of War, and are now famous for the gentle temper, and even in the heat of battle knowing the hand of it's owner.

  7. Bulldogs4Life

    Bulldogs4Life Member

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    Do you have anymore pictures of him? She's a Pit Bull. I really think he looks more like Pit then anything else.
    Does he look anything like this?
    [​IMG]

    I said some people on Dogo because of their breed make up.

    I've heard that about them on the Mayflower. European's took dogs with them all over. AKC didn't want to register Pit Bulls. Which I don't see as a big deal. There are many breeds still not AKC recognized. Pit Bulls were being registered as Bull Terriers prior to their 1935 acceptance even though the UKC was started in 1898.

    Please provide the documentation for the brindle coming by way of the Mastiff? It appears brindle & red (also white) was commonly seen in bulldogs for a very long time.
  8. lovemybull

    lovemybull Member

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    [​IMG]

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  9. LMost

    LMost Member

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    Seen plenty of brindle bulldogs, problem is the white makes them actually tri-colored.

    Also bulldogs are not a super old breed. Only the English Bulldog is a very old breed.
    And no where in the range of EM or a TM
  10. Bulldogs4Life

    Bulldogs4Life Member

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    What do you mean "makes them tri color"? And why is it a problem? A lot of the foundation pit bulldog stock imported to this country was Brindle or white & brindle.

    They are a very old type! European pit dogs have been documented for at least 300 years.
    English Bulldogs predecessor the real bulldogs of England were from long standing type it seems to.
    Both pit & baiting dogs have existed as old "breeds". Hunt & catch dogs too and outside of England.
    How old are EM? Not that it is relevant as younger breeds don't mean they are descended EM. A canine skull was found that resembles a CO and is said to be 15,000 years old. This breed also has brindle coat but I don't think they are what went into APBT.

    When was EM supposedly brought in for brindle? I think you are confusing the histories of Bullmastiff with APBT. They (Bullmastiff) are the product of mixing bulldog & mastiff.
    These 20-40lbs brindle dogs were not and their existence pre dates that of the Bullmastiff.
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  11. Bulldogs4Life

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    Lovemybull he's cute. His head is pit like but his body is a little different than most. Someone docked his tail too I see. Maybe he's a mix of a couple bully breeds? I love his color.
  12. Bulldogs4Life

    Bulldogs4Life Member

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    I can't edit my post anymore & my phone (or that app) was giving me fits trying to get to my imagines.
    High white wasn't at all uncommon
    [​IMG]


    This is their great grandson, he was born in the USA. (The above female to the brindle male in my previous post-those two are the parents of his paternal grand sire). He's also mostly white with brindle.
    [​IMG]

    Sorry everyone. Wish I could have retrieved these for that first post up there with great grand sire.
  13. lovemybull

    lovemybull Member

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    I love looking at the old pictures and reading the history
    Here's Sgt. Stubby
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    With Callie we adopted him from animal control as a young adult, no idea of his background at all. Someone cropped his tail, glad they didn't get to his ears. AC picked him up walking near the Parkway.
  14. Bulldogs4Life

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    I always wondered if he was a Boston Bulldog. A strain pit bulldog in the Boston area.

    If I have time I will can post a history thread.
  15. LMost

    LMost Member

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    There the oldest known breed in the UK.
  16. CaroleC

    CaroleC Member

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    Sorry you US folks, I have next to nothing knowledge of Bull Breeds.
    However, I believe brindle is an expression of the agouti gene, which may manifest differently in certain species. There appear to be different brindles - so you could both be right. My knowledge of colour genetics is rather sketchy apart from the breeds I have been involved with, but this may be helpful:-
    www.doggenetics.co.uk/brindle.html
  17. Bulldogs4Life

    Bulldogs4Life Member

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    The only brindle to my knowledge is that of the K Locus. I don't know of any different brindle than that.
    Agouti is A Locus.
    Most color genetics is easy to follow once you have a bit of understanding. Today genes for most colors have been identified & genetic test are available.
    The main questions I have is how old the EM is? When were they supposedly crossed to Pits?
  18. Bulldogs4Life

    Bulldogs4Life Member

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    Well I was trying to upload a pdf of APBT color genetics I'd created but there is a 1MB size limit.
    The basics are red/fawn, black & tan, black, brindle, (recessive) yellow/red. Everything else is simply a modification. Of course white as well which is the absence of pigment.
  19. LMost

    LMost Member

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    ?
    K (dominant black), kbr (brindle)
    The white is not a absence of pigment it is a A locus.

    Not all white is albino, the absence of pigment.

    Now that I'm home, quite simply without the debate of which story says.
    Bulldogs are not true brindles, the oldest true brindle is the mastiff.

    Oh and there is a history of the modern dog from the 1800's posted here, the linage of the mastiff can be traced to the 6th century B.C. and genetic testing has already proven the Mastiff is the oldest Molosser breed along with the Tibetan Mastiff.
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2015
  20. Bulldogs4Life

    Bulldogs4Life Member

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    Yes that's the only Brindle I know of too, not any different types

    What do you mean about the white? The A Locus consist of sable/fawn (red) found in APBT, Agouti (banded hairs), Black & Tan/Tan Point found in APBT, recessive black.

    White isn't found on A Locus but on the S Locus. At least mutation for piebald has been found. If a dog has a copy of piebald allele then they will have white. Which is absence of pigment. How else would you describe white? It inhibits skin cells from producing pigment, which would therefore be the absence of. It also causes the lack of skin pigment butterfly nose & can lead to pigment reduction in the eyes bi or parti eyes.

    The lack of pigment in the inner ear caused by white is what also leads to deafness in several white / white headed breeds or individual dogs.
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2015
  21. Bulldogs4Life

    Bulldogs4Life Member

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    Ok where is it posted? The modern dogs you mean English Mastiff of the 1800s?
    It would make sense that their lineage would trace back to such dogs. As do other breeds. I'm sure in 6th century B.C. their were fearsome war dogs, hunters, baiting, fighting & gladiator dogs. These dogs were the ancestors of today's dogs. People traded dogs or took dogs with them when they migrated.
    Can you post the links to the DNA study please. Stuff like this highly interest me. I'd greatly appreciate it.

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